Lutetium
@Aaron_Kraus The substrate itself is spot-on 4.0 mils, which I've measured with a micrometer across multiple panel runs. The copper would likely be the largest variable, but should be with our stack-up specs https://docs.oshpark.com/services/flex/.
Gotcha, I'll throw something together. I'm curious to see how hard it would be to weld a stack of surface contact flex PCBs. Our ultrasonic welder is pretty old but has a decent sized jaw. Based off of the spec sheet I doubt we would be able to join more than 2-3 double sided but that could allow for water resistance.
@oshpark @Dan Sheadel thx I missed that somehow :)
Vias work just as normal?
oh yeah, seconding the via question
@Bil Herd you might be interested in the RF filters that Darrell Harmon did on our Flex service https://twitter.com/HarmonInst/status/1102991659384528896
@Aaron_Kraus Yep. The entire submission and design process is identical to normal rigid boards.
@David Troetschel , wondering where you're going with this sounds cool.
O_o very nice
I guess you just answered all my questions for now
@Aaron_Kraus Additionally, since the polyimide substrate is so uniform the interior plating tends to be very regular and smooth. Also, they're very short due to the thinness of the material, so a _little_ less resistance :)
@Drew Fustini That kind of stuff makes me grin maniacally.
is the a script available for generating spirals for inductors in kicad?
As with any flexible design, ideally keep vias away from the portions of the board which you expect to be doing the maximum flexing.
is *there
you could create it in Inkscape, then use one of the KiCAD SVG importers
@Michael Welling (good question)
@Michael Welling I wrote one in Python for use on the butterfly and would like to try to adapt it to an Action script plugin soon.
wondering if the process is documented some place?
@oshpark I would love to see that code. Got it up somewhere?
@oshpark hmm on a *more or less* sphere the flexing should be uniform on the full pcb :p
so i should spread the vias uniformly as well?
@Daren Schwenke Not yet! But after this Hack Chat I'll have motivation to do that sooner than later. :)
Any plans for 4-layer flex service?
(could use right now)
Oooo great question...
General cost for 2 layer flex sq inch?
@Aaron_Kraus Generally, you only need to care about vias around _sharp_ bends. If it's a gradual, gentle bend, there's not as much concern. There's a lot of really good whitepapers to cover various aspects of mechanical design.
I don't think so right now. We are looking to increase volume on the 2 layer flex to increase the speed that we fill the panel.
@Bil Herd Right now it's $10/square-inch of design, and for that you get the usual 3 copies shipped for free anywhere.
@Kris Winer No plans yet, but it's possible. Just as likely is the possibility we do 4 layer rigid flex, with 2 layers of flex sandwiched in 2 layers of rigid.
@Michael Welling this should work: https://github.com/mtl/svg2mod
Goal would be weight reduction for flight controllers and animal trackers...
? @Dan Sheadel , what would be the point?
@Kris Winer Yeah!
I'm iiiiin! https://hackaday.io/project/165714-sprite-wand
Do you use the same fab house for flex as you do for rigid ? (Memory is it was GoldPhoenix)
Are there any free or affordable tools that can help with "3D" or foldable designs?
All services are manufactured in the USA including the Flex
Altium... oh wait, you said affordable.
@Bil Herd We don't actually use GoldPhoenix, but yeah, the fab that makes our flex also makes some of our rigid boards.
@Nicolas Tremblay lets just say I have a pretty bored cat....
thanks @Frank Buss
Lol.. I will avoid saying that then. :)
@NikiSchlifke like Pepakura Designer?
how is the production process works? Premade Kapton sheets with a layer of copper on top? and than laminate another kapton layer as soldermask?
Gold Phoenix was used by BatchPCB which OSH Park took over several years ago from SparkFun. All OSH Park orders are always fab'd in the U.S.
@Nicolas Tremblay Rigid flex is super cool, in that you can have the benefits of both. Solid, fixed assembly points, and built in bendy wiring. You can basically fab a whole network of PCBs at once.
@NikiSchlifke I really like FreeCAD, didn't try it in combination with KiCAD so far, but looks like it is possible:
http://kicad-pcb.org/external-tools/stepup/
Advanced?
That would explain the parity errors on the memory, thanks.
@Maave yes!
Well could you incorporate that into a pcb design workflow?
What kind of weight reduction could be achieved with rigid flex vs regular 4-layer rigid pcbs? 20%? 50%?
@Dan Sheadel Now I get it. My mind is getting more blown minute by minute
I have no clue about using Pepakura with PCBs, I've only seen it used for craft projects
@Kris Winer We'll get back on that one. We should be able to get Laen to weigh some QC boards to get a proper weight ratio.
@Aaron_Kraus it uses premade sheets of the polymide substrate with copper already applied. the soldermask is applied later with LPI process.
@Maave I guess you could make the outline with it and use dxf/svg import to kicad
Pepakura looks really perfect for doing flex designs. You'd certainly need to export and import it to generate gerbers for our process though.
@Dan Sheadel Pepakura dragon with LED eyes and ... touch sensors to change eye colours?
and copper scales
Yeah Pepakura it is then :)
and nichrome artificial muscles
@Maave jup just what i thought about
flappy winged dragon XD
:) Friendly reminder that there's always room in the Hackaday flex contest for a friendly flexy dragon.
naw, coils and magnets..
There is still time to submit to the contest and there is good chance that all entries will get free 2 square inches on our flex service:
https://hackaday.io/contest/163267-flexible-pcb-concept-contest
@Dan Sheadel damn ... if I only had any spare time, apart from my other 500 side projects U_u
I'll see what I'm able to whipout in a short turn :)
Whats the deadline again?
Since flex is laser-cut, the outlines can be more detailed than are normally achievable with a rotary milling bit used on rigid services.
deadline is wednesday!
the contest ends May 29th (next Wednesday)
You just need to submit a project idea. Not a finished project
@NikiSchlifke Fusion360 has sheet metal mode, whereas you can create and work on any surface folded or unfolded. Also integrates with Eagle PCB, also free for non-comercial use.
this project used paper to prototype the design:
https://hackaday.io/project/165256-fitm-flex-in-the-middle-for-power-analysis
Will submit! @drew
@oshpark Seriously? you lasercut that after everything is done? How awesome is that?
I can't wait until HaD has a 1 Cubic Inch contest for flex PCB
gerat!
@Aaron_Kraus - remember, all the contest needs is an idea with some kind of documentation. Scribble a design down on a napkin even
Will submit @Drew Fustini
@Joe Miller nice thanks, I'm using Fusion 360 so I'll check that out
1 'cubic' inch, aka, 20 bends of flex and components over an inch. :)
@Joe Miller Wow, I haven't realized that, fusion360 really has everything I should have guessed.
Flex is a LOT of fun! The contest is a great way to jump in and get your feet wet, and see first hand some of the wild and cool things that can be done with it.
Here is an interesting entry:
Möbius Flex https://hackaday.io/project/164528-mbius-flex
https://cdn.hackaday.io/images/145481554823951668.jpg
neat! I was also thinkign of adding a modius
hmmmm .. any good wearable examples?
Sheet metal tools are really nice, since you can actually specify bend radii. It's really handy when you have to get the lengths done properly. Actually sticking to the bend you design is a different matter entirely.
So flex is really only 2D then....
2D in 3D space
2.5D
i get that right?
2 inches sqare, would be a square just shy of 36mm edge length?
Ah, a projection.
@Michael Welling here is a wearable idea https://hackaday.io/project/164262-flexible-diy-nike-fuelband
https://cdn.hackaday.io/images/9524541551948750100.png
thanks Dan
and the ultimate wearable:
Cyborg Eyeball Project https://hackaday.io/project/164544-cyborg-eyeball-project
cool, bobricius is quite industrious
though not sure if that is a good idea :)
@Aaron_Kraus Correct.
yikes!
interesting wearable concept to detect sign language
https://hackaday.io/project/165673-flex-type-and-sign
The 2 square inches of design space can be used as a 1" x 2", or an ~36 mm square, etc.
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