LutetiumOkay, let's get this PCB party started!
Add your questions in the discussion here and I'll ask them throughout the chat: https://hackaday.io/event/63030-everything-pcb-with-osh-park-hack-chat
A big welcome to @Dan Sheadel and Drew @oshpark ! Why don't we start off with both of you telling us a little bit about yourself?
(for reference, here's why we can't be trusted to label things)
@Thomas Shaddack That's fair. They're just not-so-awesome when they escape their containment.
usually, i label my PCB using the copper in the design
HAH @Dan Sheadel
Hi, this is Drew Fustini from OSH Park. Here is a list I'm working on of PCB projects with awesome artwork:
http://blog.oshpark.com/2018/03/02/pcb-projects-with-awesome-artwork/
oshpark says:
I'm always amazed by the creative ways that people are able to use fiberglass, copper, silkscreen and soldermask :)
Silkscreen is not reallt needed
Anyway, on point! Hi! I'm Dan! I'm a mash of Support and dev, mostly working on the backend but also managing front end updates and fixes.
Fan of board art, tiny useless robots, and an FRC mentor, hence they byline on the hackaday blog. :)
Stephen says:
That's awesome, so glad to have you two on the chat. Let's start this Q&A with the basics before ramping up. Julius (Mr. Seeker) asks:
If you want to start PCB design, what software would you guys recommend, besides Eagle?
I am an Open Source Hardware designer here at OSH Park and am also a member of the BeagleBoard.org Foundation board of directors. I can often be found at hardware meetups wearing purple :)
-Drew Fustini
SO MUCH PURPLE
Always :D
Totes! Kicad and Eagle are the ones we're fans of. As far as hobby work goes, I think they're the most well rounded and usable.
I've used Designspark too, tho it has its downsides
Within OSH Park, we are split about 50/50 between EAGLE and KiCad. I (Drew) use KiCad for my projects while Dan usually uses EAGLE. Both are very popular tools with our customers
from RS components
i prefer KiCad
How can someone get into industry software like Altium or OrCad without paying so much?
I promise to keep mostly quiet, but one advice for beginners is to try both and then figure out which one you like the best. After you are down the road, you'll build up libraries of parts and footprints that will make you very *sticky* to the tool - changing will be a hassle you won't want to do.
Hello everyone, sorry for the late join :-(
For anyone interested in learning KiCad, we recommend this tutorial: https://contextualelectronics.com/courses/getting-to-blinky/
We've heard DipTrace and Designspark are both pretty usable. Haven't used them. If you have a school or university, you can try Altium or ORCAD a lot of time.
I used both Kicad and Eagle
How can someone get into industry software like Altium or OrCad without paying so much?
I promise to keep mostly quiet, but one advice for beginners is to try both and then figure out which one you like the best. After you are down the road, you'll build up libraries of parts and footprints that will make you very *sticky* to the tool - changing will be a hassle you won't want to do.
For anyone interested in learning KiCad, we recommend this tutorial: https://contextualelectronics.com/courses/getting-to-blinky/
We've heard DipTrace and Designspark are both pretty usable. Haven't used them. If you have a school or university, you can try Altium or ORCAD a lot of time.
I used both Kicad and Eagle
Mostly, the best advice is that
A) PCB tools are all awful. Hands down.
B) Find the one you spend the least time fighting with,
C ) Get used to one that won't bottleneck you for the forseeable future.
It's an endless debate for sure. Next question is from me!
When making PCB art, which parts of the design are better to do in your CAD suite and which designs are best to be imported from another softare?
What is Oshpark (me googling)
@Andrew Sowa has been having great success doing PCB in KiCad:
https://blog.oshpark.com/2017/03/30/creating-the-benchoff-nickel/
I tried Mentor once, couldn't even get started since i couldn't find documentation anywhere
i'm here to mention pcb-rnd for *nux users and fans of the unix philosophy, it has a lot going for it. http://repo.hu/projects/pcb-rnd/
Personally, I do _all_ my PCB art in Eagle.
@Nick Sayer Totally agree. I have hundreds of custom footprints in eagle I would hate to have to move to another tool.
PCBmodE? http://pcbmode.com/ from Boldport
If you're used to things like Inkscape that can generate SVGs, you can get _really_ good art with litlte hassle for most tools.
Often I will do my artwork in a photo editing program (GIMP) and then import as a bitmap (into KiCad).
@Jon Raymond KiCad can readily read Eagle footprints.
If you have to rasterize it (bitmaps) you'll run into problems with DPI, post processing, sizes, etc. It can be a mess. Some tools do better than others here.
People often find success doing vector graphics and importing a SVG or DXF
Ooh. I use Omnigraffle to make SVGs for laser-cutting designs. I haven't considered attempting to import SVGs into - say - the outline layer in EAGLE.....
Eagle does SVG import REALLY well. Way better than it does bitmaps (bleh).
@Benchoff has some good notes here https://hackaday.io/project/18508-mr-robot-badge/log/53901-this-is-how-you-do-art-in-kicad
@Taylor Street nice, I've tried to do the Kicad thing several times, I get frustrated and go back to Eagle every time.
I will have to deeply ponder that....
Haha, that's how I feel about Eagle!
^ take beziers, add anchor points, simplify, straight lines only.
facelesstech also has some good tips http://blog.oshpark.com/2017/01/08/convert-inkscape-svg-drawings-to-kicad-footprints/
Keep in mind if you export a Polygon, a lot of import tools can keep that! So if you're doing SVG art, it should import as an appropriate filled zone/polygon.
i'm self taught. i'd like to improve my PCB layout skills especially when it comes to minimizing signal noise. do you have an recommendations for learning material?
looks like I'm here to catch this one
what up people
isn't eagle now on a licence you have to pay / year for?
Uri Shaked also documents his process that he used for heart PCB:
http://blog.oshpark.com/2017/03/28/heart-shaped-flashlight-pcb/
A Practical Guide to Designing PCB Art
A Practical Guide to Designing PCB Art - Uri Shaked - Medium
Printed Circuit Boards (PCBs) are literally all around us: nearly every consumer electronic good contains a PCB, and more and more we see people designing their own to use in their DIY electronics projects - I've certainly designed a few myself for all kinds of funky projects!
> isn't eagle now on a licence you have to pay / year for?
For the paid versions. The free versions are still, helpfully, free.
If you want to learn how to mitigate noise in PCBs there are tons of white papers on the subject by most semiconductor manufactures
@anfractuosity Yes - but there's a good argument as to why that's better, but it's off-topic here. Contact me offline if you want to hear it.
a little googling and you'll find plenty
If it helps justify it, AutoDesk is ACTUALLY updating it with a lot of significant changes. They're a rare case where a subscription is actually somewhat justifiable, although there's still lots of debate here.
given that professional software tools receive a lot of updates every year
and you work with a bunch of outside companies
it makes sense to subscribe and be at the latest
instead of bying a new copy fo a lump sum yearly
@happyday.mjohnson if you have a specific circuit in mind, datasheets and app notes are your friend!
These are good thoughts and resources around PCB art! Lets remember to keep some of the questions and commenting in the discussion on this page, and give Dan and Drew the stage to share. https://hackaday.io/event/63030-everything-pcb-with-osh-park-hack-chat
Those are some awesome art based PCBs that were pointed to earlier. :)
again for those that missed it. here is a list of some projects with awesome PCB art:
http://blog.oshpark.com/2018/03/02/pcb-projects-with-awesome-artwork/
Heh. To round off the original question,
> When making PCB art, which parts of the design are better to do in your CAD suite and which designs are best to be imported from another softare?
As a guideline, probably keep the electrical stuff in the design. Do what you can do easily in the tool, and do external tools and imports for the hard stuff.
Next question for you @Dan Sheadel and @oshpark. This one is from x: What do you think of PCBmodE any other interesting design centric PCB tools?
I believe in the future @Andrew Sowa will be doing a hackchat about pcb artwork so he can talk more about his process. He love what did with this full panel sign for us!
https://www.instagram.com/p/BcGrEupBJQi/
I actually tried PCBMode, and was SUPER excited about it originally. Sadly, it really didn't fit the bill of being an "art focused pcb tool", and was more aof a "pcb focused art tool". S, the PCB side really suffered with the workflow. The art side was also super rough.
He has a great process for converting photos into PCB http://andrewsowa.com/blog/2017/12/18/pay-what-you-want-pcb-art
I REALLY wish that rather than making _new_ tools, what happens is that existing open tools get upgrades to allow art creation more easily. Kicad in particular.
The Boldport designs really show off the power of PCBmodE
totally a ton of potential for KiCAD to get plugins like that
Unfortunately, I don't have much direct experience with the tool but Saar's work is very impressive
In my opinion, the best PCB art is a functional board that has a lot of artistic touches, rather than just art.
> totally a ton of potential for KiCAD to get plugins like that
Interesting idea!
@Dan Sheadel agreed lets get more features in KiCad, and Boldport is epic for inspirational art in PCB form factor
I third that sentiment
regarding other software, @Blake Ramsdell has created software for doing PCB paints
https://hackaday.io/page/3353-full-panel-pcb-painting-fabricated
Full Panel PCB Painting -- Fabricated! * Blake Ramsdell * Hackaday.io
Happy to consider commissions and suggestions for future pieces. If it can be represented as a bitmap, it can be rendered as a PCB Painting! Please comment below with your thoughts.
@oshpark reason I say that, is because in my professional opinion KiCAD is very powerful, I hold it in the same regard as Altium Designer. And given that it has a framework for adding features its just a matter of time
hi drew!
do you see any pcb artists using halftoning? with a limited palette it sounds like a good direction to head in.
i used https://github.com/mtl/svg2mod a while ago with kicad iirc for simpleish stuff
Alright, we have a ton of OSH Park specific questions, so let's move into those!
checkout Blake's profile https://hackaday.io/bcr
Jon Raymond asks:
Any plans to offer alternative solder mask colours? Also, have flexible pcbs been deemed a viable option?
and PCB paintings group for more info https://www.facebook.com/pcbpaintings/
yeah FlexPCBs are really hot right now
I know EvilMadScience did some sort of half-toning style boards a while back, but I'm pretty sure it's actually a slight different algorithm.
EvilMadScience used some kind of error diffusion as well in their half-toning technique
> Any plans to offer alternative solder mask colours?
It's possible. We're getting to the point where we can do a new color on a 3 week turn time (probably). We'd need to figure out a color though, and run some tests to make sure it's pretty enough.
ah yes, i believe that EHSM workflow was inkscape > pstoedit > geda/pcb
> Also, have flexible pcbs been deemed a viable option?
HOOO BOY. So far, yes, but it's been an adventure
random thought. what about making PCBs by direct deposition of conductive inks on an arbitrary substrate?
Dan Sheadel says:
We've been working on our test panels for _6 months_. W
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