Lutetium-
Hack Chat Transcript, Part 2
02/27/2019 at 21:10 • 0 comments![]()
Right. Did you implement the double-step initially, or only remember it later on?![]()
The film simplified it a lot. It's not a 'stick in the question - get out the answer' type machine.![]()
No, i knew about that before I started.![]()
Building my 3D printed Enigma though really showed me physically how the double stepping works.![]()
The double step thing is a classic example of a hidden defect in software. If you don't know about it and implement the code without it the code will work most of the time. But at some point you get to it and suddenly it stops working correctly.![]()
The classic "How did this ever work?" dilemma![]()
And with an encryption device like this once you hit that bug it's all wrong from that point on.![]()
How did you test you Enigma watch?![]()
A lot of static code reviewing. Since it uses a lot of look up tables to model the rotors. I knew about the double stepping so I specifically tested around that. And then I used several other Enigma apps I found, on my phone and online to test against.![]()
So I am assuming they got theirs right too!![]()
Might be interesting to add BLE or LoRa to the watch so as to create a sort of secure walkie-talkie!![]()
I guess not many people have a real Enigma to check against.![]()
The one change I made between the wristwatch and pocketwatch (apart from adding the RTC to the latter) was to improve the button debouncing.![]()
Not sure I would ever use it! Some people I with have Apple watches and they tested out some walkie talkie function on that. Once.![]()
i work with that it![]()
I'd imagine there are contemporary encoded texts in an archive somewhere that you could decode as a test?![]()
There is supposedly a real Enigma about a mile from me. Peter Jackson owns one.![]()
As far as I know it's the only one in New Zealand. I have seen them in museums but never touched one. I am hoping once i finish my 3D printed version I can arrange to see the real one and compare them.![]()
A friend of mine is making ESP32 based watch and it has WiFi and BLE, but no LoRa![]()
doing voice over LoRa is probably not really doable as it is intended for small rare packages![]()
Is there anything you would propose to make the Enigma "better"? More secure, simpler, etc. Or was the idea simply to realize the historic Enigma and be done?![]()
For me just historic. The issues with it are well known and were in WW2 even. The Germans and British both had better encryption devices to work around Enigmas shortcomings.![]()
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I don't know how Peter Jackson would respond, but if I had a real Enigma and someone said "Wanna see my pocket watch Engima?" I'd be all over that.![]()
@Boian Mitov I was thinking of short messages, not voice. you are right not enough bandwidth for voice even with BLE I think.![]()
@Kris Winer Sure for message LoRa is perfect :-)![]()
One think I haven't looked into too much is how quickly you could solve Enigma now. You can't brute force it, too many combination even for a massively fast computer, but apparently there are algorithms you can use.![]()
I worked for Weta Workshop for a while. Peter Jackson isn't involved with that really now but I think it might help me get a foot in the door with him.![]()
@Boian Mitov What batteries will it use?![]()
I am not sure what else I could do with Enigma now. Try to make an even smaller one?![]()
@Simon Jansen I have not asked him, but if you want I can put you in touch with him directly :-)He is quite a crazy guy. Does a lot of cool projects :-)
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Sure!![]()
ESP32 is not a low power device, unfortunately :<![]()
But electronic Enigma in a watch form factor is more practical, if that is what you are going for...![]()
In the pocketwatch I did look at using low power mode on the Arduino and screen but in the end went with a physical switch.![]()
I was wondering about the progression of size with the Enigma projects.![]()
Could do a normal watch sized one perhaps?![]()
I imagine there are smart watch implementations of Enigma?![]()
I'm certain. But an Enigma app on an Apple Watch would be totally not interesting.![]()
Maybe watch version of the Bombe, just in case Enigma cyphers come back into vogue...?![]()
Hals the charm is the beautiful machining, IMHO![]()
Getting enough processing power in a device that size would be tricky!![]()
*Half![]()
@Dan Maloney , I think so. The actual build is important!![]()
Most peoples eyes glaze over when you show them the watch and then mention it's an Enigma machine. Telling people it's a Bombe would probably get me arrested!![]()
Ha. Try taking it through airport security...![]()
LoL!![]()
I got the Bombe code running on a 6502 machine.![]()
It was just quite slow.![]()
Well, VERY slow.![]()
Hmm. In that case, could be doable.![]()
It is one of those things when you see the code and think is that all there is but really there is a lot going on.![]()
What would prevent you from implementing it for the current Enigma watch?![]()
Just storage?![]()
The Bombe has input issues. Part of the Enigma watches was working out how to do a UI with only three buttons.![]()
Hmm, yes.![]()
Is that all?![]()
An Arduino based Bombe would be slow too. Also the main appeal of the Bombe is that it is a big, physical machine. All the drums turning.![]()
Perhaps I2S mic and vice recognition would sove the input problem.![]()
voice![]()
It's is why when I did the Raspberry Pi version the main focus was on the machine.![]()
For the visual effect?![]()
I am not sure how easy it would be to draw up a menu using voice commands!![]()
Just 26 letters to recognize, no?![]()
I wonder if anyone runs bombe demonstrations on a regular basis. Bletchley Park, if anyone, I guess.![]()
Yes, it's a nice looking device and makes appropriate whiring noises. And I also simulated the funny little half speed turn the drums do when ti finds a stop.![]()
Not sure how well this will paste but:![]()
Rotors: 2, 5, 3Reflector: B
Test register: G
Input voltage: A
Drums: ZZK, ZZE, ZZF, ZZN, ZZM, ZZG, ZZP, ZZB, ZZJ, ZZI, ZZL, ZZO, ZZA
Connections:
U: 1i
E: 1o, 2i, 7o, 8in
G: 2o, 3i, 11o, 12i
R: 3o, 4i, 10o, 11i
A: 4o, 5i
S: 5o, 6i, 13o
V: 6o, 7i
N: 8o
H: 9i
Z: 9o, 10i
L: 12o
W: 13i
![]()
That's a Bombe menu.![]()
BP have a working replica of the Bombe, they demo that. I tested mine by running the same menu they use for them demonstrations.![]()
I also used some period documents from the time that listed example menus and the solutions.![]()
You can think of the Drums line there as a string of Enigma machines linked together.![]()
When I make something I like to make it well.![]()
So I've got one of these dimmable high power LED drivers from Meanwell. It has an external dimming port that is supposed to be used with either a potentiometer, a 0-10V PWM signal or a 10V PWM signal.![]()
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So that's what I came up with..![]()
I don't think they had MOSFETS when Enigma was invented :)![]()
hmm needs a vacuum tube imo![]()
Vacuum tube was a memory registers.![]()
@Simon Jansen , general question: When and how did the interest in machining come about? How long have you been at it now?![]()
They had those. Look up Tommy Flowers and Colossus.![]()
Colossus was fantastic. You should build a full-size replica of that!![]()
Get random bits of clothing stuck in the high speed loop and ripped off.![]()
haha. Too big![]()
Machine I think just came from doing metalwork things. It's a natural progression. From hand tools to machine tools I guess.![]()
People can get to caught up in the tools though.![]()
Right, I find that. Are the tools part of the project, or just a means to an end?![]()
I am sure there is a story about how the room with Colossus was so hot from the valves the women operators in there used to remove clothing to keep cool.![]()
I often find myself taking on projects simply because it means I can buy new tools.![]()
I have issues.![]()
I can get frustrated if I want to complete something, only to find I'm spending all my time trying to get 3D printers working or something like that.![]()
That's perfectly normal![]()
Bit of both. Some tools make things easier and you get them and think how could I not have had one before. Other times the tool can be a distraction.![]()
(the tool issue)![]()
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One problem with tools is if you jump straight to them you miss understanding the basics. Metal working is a classic example. You can do so much with just a hammer and lumps of steel.![]()
My metal working mentor used to complain about carpenters who just use nail guns and have never driven a nail by hand into different timbers just to see how they feel and react.![]()
Yeah, the builds with nothing but a good set of files amaze me. And Clickspring, of course.![]()
Software is getting that way too. The IDEs and tools make it easy to start but people don't learn the fundamentals.![]()
I like how the Arduino makes it easy to start but as soon as you start trying to do more you need to start learning more.![]()
And being on actual hardware you need some understanding of that.![]()
arduino being a pretty common base also makes it easy to share stuff with others![]()
And there are some amazing libraries about for it.![]()
The raspberry pi I haven't got as much into. It's more a general purpose computer.![]()
One of my projects a few years ago was making my own 6502 machine from scratch. Because I was always annoyed that as a kid I couldn't understand exactly how a computer actually worked. I knew it was all 1s and 0s. But how did it work with just those two things.![]()
I also got to use crackle black paint on that :)![]()
For me the making of things isn't usually to get the thing at the end. It's the journey getting there.![]()
It's why I have lots of unfinished projects. I get what I need out of them so often stop.![]()
It's after 1:00 here in the Pacific timezone, so I'm going to call an "official" end to the Hack Chat. If Simon wants to stay on and answer questions, that's perfectly fine. I do know he took the day off from work especially to share with us, and I really appreciate that. This was a great chat and I really learned a lot.![]()
Thanks!![]()
Don't forget to tune in next week for Brian Lough talking about what it's like to go from software developer to Tindie store proprietor: https://hackaday.io/event/164058-from-software-to-tindie-hack-chat![]()
I get to spend the afternoon in the garage bashing metal now!![]()
:-)![]()
Hack Chat Transcript, Part 1
02/27/2019 at 21:09 • 0 commentsWell let's get started. I want to welcome Simon Jansen to the Hack Chat today. He's he to talk about his awesome Enigma watch builds, but he's got a TON of other hacks under his belt too. So I'm sure we'll have a ton of questions for him.
Simon, can you tell us a little about yourself?
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Hi, sure. Well, I live in Wellington, New Zealand.![]()
Hello @Simon Jansen :-)![]()
hello!![]()
NZ ftw!![]()
My day job is as a software engineer and I have been a tester and a developer in the past. Now I specialise in test automation.![]()
putting this link in here:![]()
http://www.asciimation.co.nz/bb/2015/03/24/a-three-rotor-enigma-machine-wrist-watch
Asciimation
March 24th, 2015 This is one of the most satisfying projects I have done I think. Mainly because this is a real device and something so historically important. It is a fully functioning Enigma machine you can wear on your wrist. This is a three rotor Enigma machine as used by German Wermacht in WW2 for encoding messages.
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And I guess I have always been a science geek/tinkerer.![]()
@Jarrett - Thanks! Just about to post that myself.![]()
The Enigma interest is a fairly recent one for me.![]()
I knew a little about it before since I was always into WW1/WW2 type stuff. And also being a computer scientist I of course knew about Alan Turing. When the Imitation Game film came out I went to see it of course. And was annoyed at all the things I knew were inaccurate in it.![]()
*subscribed*![]()
Enigma fascinates me. The idea that so much hinged on one machine...![]()
So it got me into finding out how the Turing Welchman Bombe really worked. And to understand that you first need to understand Enigma.![]()
Was that the one with Benadryl Cumberbund?![]()
It's an interesting machine since it is both so simple and so complicated at the same time.![]()
Cumberbund Bitchslap, yes.![]()
lol![]()
Guy has the most mangleable name and everyone still knows who you mean!![]()
Love playing with that name![]()
The film is good, I enjoyed it. But of course it's not a documentary.![]()
Enigma always impressed me a "just one more thing" build.![]()
Like they just kept adding stuff until it was sufficiently complicated.![]()
The Germans were quite arrogant and they were always convinced about it's security.![]()
aren't we all today as well?![]()
I think only Karl Donitz had doubts about it which is why the naval one had extra complications.![]()
These days I assume most things are insecure if someone really wants to get into it.![]()
I like Enigma since it is an electromechanical machine and the mechanics add a few quirks into how it behaves.![]()
so you make a token effort of "reasonably" securing it by "industry standards" and don't really care more than that![]()
and that's exactly what they did back then as well![]()
Absolutely. I guess social engineering was harder when at war with your target.![]()
I think a lot of the IOT makers don't even do that.![]()
well, different people have different ideas about what "reasonable" means![]()
Hi all![]()
was the Enigma machine German made? I recall thinking it was Swiss![]()
it was German![]()
@Mike Walters The story around what the British called Ultra, the intelligence they got from Enigma, describes a lot about that.![]()
I see![]()
But it was the social reverse engineering around Enigma I find fascinating. The way the Allies had to hide what they gleaned from German traffic so as not to tip their hands.![]()
and it actually existed before the war, as a commercial offering![]()
It's complicated. The idea was patented by someone then someone else took it over.![]()
that's how they were able to figure out the construction![]()
yeah, banking used it I believe![]()
And yes, it was a commercial machine initially.![]()
Without the plug board.![]()
the military version was more complex, adding more cylinders![]()
is the plug board that important, though?![]()
I mean, it's just a simple caesar cipher, no?![]()
They knew the basic construction from patents and the Poles also managed to 'hold one up in customs' and examine it.![]()
https://hackaday.com/2017/08/22/the-enigma-enigma-how-the-enigma-machine-worked/
The Enigma Enigma: How The Enigma Machine Worked
To many, the Enigma machine is an enigma. But it's really quite simple. The following is a step-by-step explanation of how it works, from the basics to the full machine. Possibly the greatest dedicated cipher machine in human history the Enigma machine is a typewriter-sized machine, with keyboard included, that the Germans used to encrypt and decrypt messages during World War II.
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It's like multiple ciphers.![]()
I always find it fascinating that if you go to Polish museums or books, you will learn that the whole thing was basically cracked by the Polish people, and the British just added some minor optimizations![]()
It's simple substitutions done multiple times with the settings changing each time.![]()
I meant the plug board itself was like a caesar cipher![]()
not adding much in terms of security![]()
Yes, the Polish mathematicians don't get enough credit.![]()
I think it's just a case of each country tooting their own horn![]()
The reason they thought ti secure is just the huge number of possible combinations of settings.![]()
Well, they couldn't. An awful lot of what happened was kept secret for a long time.![]()
Recreating it, what was the most difficult part to design and get right?![]()
Churchill was wary since he'd made the mistake of letting it be know in his writing that in WW1 Britain had cracked German codes.![]()
Recreating in SW or HW do you mean?![]()
@Simon Jansen the craftsmanship of your device is exceptional. you even went trough the effort to etch the logo![]()
One of my other hobbies is metalworking. I like to pick up little skills where I can, the etching came from knowing how to etch PCBs.![]()
https://hackaday.com/2018/12/03/an-arduino-wrapped-in-an-oled-wrapped-inside-an-enigma-pocket-watch/For those who have not yet feasted their eyes...
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Software wise the algorithm for Enigma is fairly simple. You just need to know the double stepping trick.![]()
The hardware - I find that some things I design/print come out right the first time, but others I need so many iterations that it can be frustrating.![]()
Hardware it's just a matter of making it small enough. I spent a long time trying to work out how to power the pocketwatch. What sort of batteries were practical and how to fit them.![]()
I did use 3D printing a lot to mock up parts to arrange them in the case.![]()
batteries are always the worst for wearables :(![]()
I looked at small LiPos but they are hard to buy here and then you need some way to charge them.![]()
love the pocket watch even more![]()
steampunky![]()
I actually wear the pocket watch every day. I added a RTC chip to it and it does actually tell the time.![]()
Ohhh, I'm not a fan of steampunk to be honest :)![]()
If it didn't tell the time, would it still be a pocket watch?![]()
No, it would be a pocket folly I guess.![]()
does a submarine swim?![]()
ok.. then let's call ist retro![]()
http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=266
Hark, a vagrant: 266
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I like steampunk, but only when done well. The 'let's glue gears to a top hat' people make me angry.![]()
Steampunk alway makes me thing of that.![]()
Yes, done well it's cool.![]()
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFCuE5rHbPA
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I suppose everyone has to start somewhere. Shouldn't discourage people from trying!![]()
I guess I am a more practical engineer. I go for function first but try to make the functional appealing too.![]()
Cool build! Did you find a practical use for the Enigma watch too?![]()
Telling the time is practical!![]()
Not really. The watch was just a first try at making a small Enigma. Got to practice some simple metal working, leatherwork to make a strap, wrinkle finish paint and so on.![]()
Also, it would be useful if WW2 starts up again.![]()
🤣![]()
And they dust off the old Enigmas. Bletchley Park would be raided for them!![]()
I love that crinkle finish. Is there a trick to it or is it a commercially available product?![]()
Is there any value in making an electronic version of the Enigma? I thought I saw something like this recently...![]()
It's VHT wrinkle paint. You get it from automotive places. They use it on rocker covers and things like that.![]()
It can be tricky to use. You need a very even coat and even heating to get it to wrinkle correctly.![]()
@Kris Winer is ther any value in making anything?![]()
There are quite a number of electronic Enigmas about.![]()
I thought it was leather![]()
I guess there's value in making something that's 100% pointless, if you learn something and find it interesting.![]()
@deshipu Of course. Some things more than others... Maybe I should have said challenge in making an electronic version of Enigma.![]()
Oh, mentioning Bletchley Park, if you have any interest in Enigma and the Bombe and that sort of thing and are in the UK go there.![]()
Love crinkle paint, love Bakelite, love hammertone. Just a romantic, I guess![]()
I visited. I enjoyed it.![]()
Amazing place since you can really imagine everything happening there in WW2.![]()
Definitely. The fact that it's a bit run down actually adds to the atmosphere.![]()
Or it was. That was a few years ago.![]()
The challenge for me was just coming up with the algorithm to use in the desktop Bombe I made really. The Bombe is really just a series of Enigmas all strung together.
