Lutetium-
Hack Chat Transcript, Part 2
06/05/2019 at 20:04 • 0 comments![]()
@Paúl who would care that much? Big Pharma?![]()
leaving an open port for future expansion is usually a good strategy![]()
@Paúl Anyone can do anything they want. Current experimental set ups won't prevent anyone from falsifying data![]()
what it would however, is immediately present a flag![]()
@Paúl Is that a security flaw for RPi?![]()
as their data set would immediately be recognized as an outlier![]()
sorry, the neural net is unrelated to the raspberry pi![]()
or "intuitive interface"![]()
I mean that the RPi ecosystem is not a particularly "hard" one to crack or break.![]()
falsified data is a significant problem: https://retractionwatch.com/2018/01/23/researcher-japan-stem-cell-institute-falsified-nearly-images-2017-paper/![]()
Most data acquisition is done by a system fully customized.![]()
RPi can't be even encrypted. SD card is all accessible![]()
So, in a sense, hack or no hack... doesn't really make a difference![]()
Did you struggle with patents?![]()
that's the idea, it is meant to be accessible/hackable![]()
@Saren Tasciyan we have encountered a couple that we've had to circumvent, but overall it hasn't been a huge problem thus far![]()
^ it would not be a primary issue, i agree. just something to think about![]()
We chose to keep using this setup over an OEM board to stay part of the community and to remain hackable and agile.![]()
@Paúl It is a problem. And we think creating our platform can help alleviate that. Because there's a huge trackable data set of their work![]()
how much bandwidth is really required for this type of data acquisition? would something even less expensive, like a Pi Zero, be sufficient?![]()
how are you keeping the cost of the optical stack down?![]()
for one, it would need wifi/ethernet (so pi zero-W)![]()
@David Sean Love that! But I have to say that <1% of biologists are aware of the value of Open Source, Open Hardware, Hackability etc![]()
you should get in touch with the Melis lab, I bet they would love to try out your incubators! https://plantandmicrobiology.berkeley.edu/profile/melis![]()
@Paúl We've specifically selected a single acquisition format. 20x, GFP![]()
interesting choice![]()
Based on my experience, this preliminary set up can acquire much of what people would need.![]()
If you would write out an agenda ahead of time, you can have a more successful discussion. If there various topics are important to this company's development and they are asking for help, you can break into smaller discussion groups. This software does not support organized discussions of that sort. If the purpose of this chat is to help expose HackaDay.IO members to better methods for commercialization, that can probably be done better by a formal presentation, more sensitive of people's time.Data collection "is" science - when you store, share, reproduce, verify, cross-link, encourage, teach and provide benefit to society.
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We won't pretend it encapsulates everything. But it's the beginning.![]()
We do a bit of image processing on the pi-side so a pi-zero may be pushing it![]()
how many people are on the team?![]()
6 people!![]()
good size!![]()
@RichardCollins are you part of the HaD/hackchat team or just sharing your input?![]()
@paul My first time in a chat. I am just a member of Hackaday.IO. I am 70 years old and have helped many people with this sort of thing. I am also tired and straining to keep track of the randomly offered topics.Do you have a good lawyer, outstanding accountant, and good office manager? - in reference to 5 people. Every startup needs these core capabilities, or it fails.
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6 people![]()
@Saren Tasciyan I think you are right about the low percentage. open-source tools like ImageJ/FIJI however are pretty well established in the bio community![]()
@RichardCollins - Thanks for the feedback, but do keep in mind that this is an informal chat. We're not here to accomplish anything other than discussing interesting hacks and ideas of a fairly high level. Sort of a "Get to know us" thing.![]()
@RichardCollins we do have excellent people working with us in terms of law, accounting, and project management, but primarily outsourced. Definitely all key to success in business!![]()
We're also a part of a startup incubator called Invest Ottawa that helps with a lot of those services![]()
Have you organized a beta test yet (or still in the development phase)?![]()
your homepage says there's a beta but i'm curious if you've shipped any units yet![]()
@Paúl yes we do have a beta list! We're still in development phase, but are communicating with our beta list people about feature preferences and such, but have yet to send out physical units.![]()
@Noah Tompkins Thanks for explaining. I came in a bit late. Cloud based/distributed/virtual organizations are about the only way to succeed these days. You sound like you are doing the right things. It is OK to be selfish and hold onto what you have learned. If you are going commercial, you have to. If you want to start a nonprofit, you can do that. But it is hard to do both.![]()
leadership would do well to look at the examples of makerbot, Anki, iRobot, boston robotics, or rethink robotics to see where they took excessive risk!![]()
So from the start of this business till now, what was the most challenging part of building your business?![]()
Hiya!![]()
hi josh!![]()
@jonathan_woren making money from selling open-source stuff isn't obvious from the get-go![]()
@jonathan_woren Starting from a simple project to a fully fledge business is a very different task![]()
it's nice to have an open source incubator for people to play with, but how does that convert into a business![]()
and where do we innovate![]()
so one of the hardest things was to accept the fact that an open source incubator wasn't going to be enough and we had to think much bigger![]()
additional question - at what point did you realize that your idea for the business was viable?![]()
@Noah Tompkins I have to go, I will design a cheap CO2 detector for you. That is too much to pay. A few dollars is better. Or a few cents. I think you might want to look at plants, they do well with CO2 and there are lots of people growing exotic ones. Best wishes![]()
there's also a whole new challenge of figuring out how to handle units that fail in the field. a DIY unit can be under constant servicing, but certainly not for one ready for production![]()
the original idea wasn't viable. Which is what actually started Incuvers![]()
so innovate... or dieeee![]()
we chose the former![]()
ahahaha right on!![]()
Lol![]()
I found field service to be the weak point for a lot of the instruments I saw in the lab. Like I said, they were all built as low-volume production runs, and there was no support infrastructure. Just third-party service techs doing their best to keep undocumented machines alive in the field.![]()
I found a 20,000 dollar cheese grater.![]()
@Dan Maloney That's where open source shines. You're absolutely right![]()
We're also focused on a single product![]()
that applies to every biologies around the world![]()
biologist![]()
Interesting![]()
So, we're not making a one off tool. We're building, what we hope, is the next generation systems of incubators![]()
That's pretty awesome!![]()
Ultimately, the future lies in every scientist owning their own system, recording everything they do.![]()
have you talked to any governmental authorities about funding or grants?![]()
yupo![]()
we've been fortunate enough to have received a few already![]()
specifically medical/biological agencies![]()
and will continue to as we move forward![]()
do you happen to be using PeerTube for video hosting/sharing?![]()
@Paúl Can you be specific ?![]()
I plan on looking into personal grants and funding for a cubesat![]()
me too josh.![]()
Coolio![]()
e.g. the US FDA, CDC, or Health Canada![]()
we'll definitely be looking into it![]()
cube sat incubator?![]()
@Paúl we are using AWS at the moment,![]()
Haha X'D![]()
@Josh best way to get involved with cubesats is to find an already existing team and join em!![]()
@Paúl I plan on creating my own. I like to take "risks". ;)![]()
in that case, don't expect to fly unless you have a cool $500k lying around! ;D![]()
Well, I do plan on looking into grants and crowd funding etc.![]()
http://lea.hamradio.si/~s53mv/microsat/microsat.html
S53MV Microsat transmitters
high-efficiency transmitter
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sorry for the offtopic!![]()
Np!![]()
Interesting link!![]()
how are your incubators currently being manufactured?![]()
it could be interesting to see zero G incubators floating around one day![]()
maybe test radio-panspermia theory with a incubator sat![]()
Well, that was a fast hour! I'm going to call time, but if the Incuvers folks can hang around, feel free to continue the chat. I just want to thanks Noah, David and Sebastian for taking the time out of their day and for the great discussion.Remember that next week we'll have Vladimir Mariano form Desktop Makes hosting. We'll be discussing "Fusion 360 and 3D-Printing": https://hackaday.io/event/164660-fusion-360-for-3d-printing-hack-chat
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does incuvers have a public mission statement? -
Hack Chat Transcript, Part 1
06/05/2019 at 20:03 • 0 commentsHello all, it's noon here on the West Coast and we're ready to kick off the Hack Chat. We're excited to have Noah, Sebastian, and David from Incuvers today, here to talk about how the company is "Disrupting Cell Biology" with some instruments that have some pretty deep hacker roots.
Welcome, Incuvers folks! Think you can kick us off with a round of introductions?
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Hey guys! Thanks for joining us. For those who don’t know much about us, we are a startup based out of Ottawa, Canada called Incuvers and we’re about to release a live cell imaging incubator called IRIS that lets researchers to remotely monitor and record all their experiments. Our website is www.incuvers.com if you want to see more about what we’re all about!![]()
We're here! and we're live!![]()
Hi all!![]()
hi!![]()
Yo![]()
Hello![]()
Let's get started...![]()
@Taiwo, let's !![]()
hey where did the idea come from??![]()
I think the best way to kick it off is where I heard about the project that would become Incuvers:![]()
Oh.. don't mind me.![]()
https://hackaday.com/2015/07/25/get-biohacking-with-a-diy-co2-incubator/
Get Biohacking with a DIY CO2 Incubator
The [Pelling Lab] have been iterating over their DIY CO2 incubator for a while now, and it looks like there's a new version in the works. We've covered open source Biolab equipment before including incubators but not a CO2 incubator. Incubators allow you to control the temperature and atmosphere in a chamber.
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ya. So that beautiful piece of styrofoam you see there was the original incubator![]()
How much of your business model is based on that of Makerbot?![]()
testing the standard quo on why incubators are so expensive![]()
I love the idea of "the YT of cellular research"!![]()
It's quite hackish looking![]()
@sebastian - Because they can be?![]()
We built it to see if we could get something working for a few hundred bucks that normally cost 8K![]()
and it worked!![]()
@Dan Maloney Exactly...![]()
Stick it to the man!![]()
are my questions showing up?![]()
The economics and business of science don't favour the scientist![]()
Yeah - I used to work in bio labs, and the insides of $100,000 instruments look like somebody's kid's science fair project.![]()
@Paúl What do you mean exactly my their business model >![]()
@Paúl yes they are!![]()
What is the professional status of HardwareX? https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2468067218301184![]()
Well, Makerbot started by selling their little Cupcake kits, and that spawned a whole series of other printers and a number of other businesses, e.g. thingiverse, shapeways![]()
Do you intend to follow that path, or to rephrase, where do you see Incuvers in 5-10 years?![]()
@Paúl glad you like the idea! Right now cell experiment photos and videos are completely decentralized. We're trying to fix that.![]()
Seems like the science suppliers all know that researchers have access to grant money and need to turn it into publications ASAP. Forces the economics and favors soaking them.![]()
*seeking them, as in high prices![]()
@Paúl we see Incuvers taking a pretty similar model to makerbot actually. The "youtube of cellular research" is also intended to kind of be a "thingiverse of cellular research"![]()
In 5-10 years we hope to provide as much if not more value with our open software platform as we do with our hardware![]()
@Dan Maloney It's also the fact that there's a great deal of R&D cost vs market size. To justify the price, you need to charge significantly higher![]()
that's very cool. What sort of licensing do you see being applied to the data uploaded to your services?![]()
e.g. if Merck can save $500k on an internal cell trial by using data uploaded by some researcher, and make $100m from some drug developed from such a trial, how should the researcher that shared that video be rewarded?![]()
@David Troetschel there is a paper draft that has been sitting in limbo for a while, we hope to publish it soon though!![]()
you could do quite well working out licensing / data sharing agreements with drug or healthcare companies in conjunction with the biomed researchers that are making this data!![]()
@Paúl Excellent question. Every researcher will have full privileges as to whether they share their data for others![]()
@David Sean thats good to hear![]()
although I will concede that a lot of cellular research isn't really applicable to drug development / discovery![]()
Its becomes a slippery slope to start applying licensing on their data. For all the obvious reasons.![]()
Technically, that's tax payers money too!![]()
yes of course!![]()
It's something I foresee evolving as we move forward. With the help of scientists and large biotech companies. To ensure rightful ownership etc..![]()
but it's an as-yet unexplored space; I'm sure there's some way that you could succeed in spite of those challenges![]()
absolutely![]()
we wouldn't be doing it if we didn't think we could pull it off![]()
we must seize the means of production...![]()
@David Troetschel ahaha![]()
lol![]()
but really![]()
you could talk to Elsevier![]()
only half /s![]()
carpe fabricatio![]()
@Paúl It'll be interesting to see how they evolve too. Their entire business model is pretty crazy![]()
@Conrad :)![]()
charging people to have access that they're paying for anyways![]()
We're starting to see open science paper gain a lot of traction. The stigma of publishing in them is fading![]()
and truthfully, everyone wins.![]()
still waf as evidence of last defcon though![]()
how do you know if a cellular growth video is real or ai-generated? o.O![]()
lol![]()
https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/archive/scigen/
SCIgen - An Automatic CS Paper Generator
One useful purpose for such a program is to auto-generate submissions to conferences that you suspect might have very low submission standards. A prime example, which you may recognize from spam in your inbox, is SCI/IIIS and its dozens of co-located conferences (check out the very broad conference description on the WMSCI 2005 website).
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So sick of running up against paywalls while researching topics for Hackaday articles. Recently hit one for a 60 year old paper with a total of five citations. WHat's that about?![]()
could have people faking data!![]()
@Dan Maloney use sci-hub.tw !![]()
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@Paúl that's a good point actually! We will have to validate legitimacy somehow![]()
or request a copy via researchgate, although maybe not for a 60 year old paper...![]()
libgen exists![]()
@Paúl They would have to own our system, and some how fake it through our optics... That's a lot of work for trying to fake it. Good luck!![]()
I actually requested a reprint. The publisher said they'd get back to me once they cleared it with the authors. All of whom have been dead for decades.![]()
oh god![]()
@sebastian I assume you use a USB camera? they could just swap it for a usb-out UVC device!![]()
One issue researchers might be afraid of is being scooped. In areas, where competition is tough, no one wants to share "too" much.![]()
@Saren Tasciyan Usually open-data archives are published after the paper is out, so 'scooping' is prevented (mostly)![]()
gets harder when you have multiple papers!![]()
@Saren Tasciyan tbh moment of fame or what?![]()
@Saren Tasciyan yes this is true! Researchers have the option to share or not. So if people don't want to share they don't have to![]()
it's hard to justify your grant proposals when all or some of your previous proposals have been copied/scooped by someone else who takes credit for them @David Troetschel![]()
We have talked to a couple folks who want to stay private. But it becomes a marketing platform for them after they publish.![]()
@Paúl Oh, sure. Sometimes, idle projects also kept secret for "just in case" forever.![]()
a patent is just the right to sue, so at-least in the United States it becomes a case of sellout or trade secret and limited market. @Paúl![]()
I have been reading, trying to follow, wondering what you are trying to accomplish. Is this about startups, or publishing and credits? Most of the successful ones don't tell anyone what they are doing, do it, charge a fair price, and go on about their lives. If you have a product that does what you say it will do, meets all the requirements, and helps people, that fits the way things have gone on until now.![]()
I agree that all projects financed by the state need to be published/shared eventually. If that process is simplified and monitored, then great!![]()
....and reproduce! we want people to share experimental setups between systems. essentially so that an author that uses our incubation system can share the "protocol" that can easily be imported to other units to be reproducable![]()
exactly![]()
A citation, but verification of physical reproduction and operation![]()
do you expect to extend your system to liquid sample delivery or spectrometry?![]()
open source hardware should have a system to verify reproduction it seems![]()
we would love to have a fluidic setup in the future![]()
if you don't, someone else will make a secondary market for those addons![]()
@David Troetschel , yes also that researchers all have their niche requirements which can be challenging to implement using standard industrial incubators. We intend for ours ( powered by a raspberry pi and an arduino) to be modded if need be.![]()
but do be aware of scope creep![]()
@Paúl that's very true. Depending on how things go, we might explore the development of those add-ons ourselves![]()
Yes, government/publically funded research should be open, but it is hard to enforce. You can start a nonprofit for sharing. For profits are prevented by law from working together except with strict legal oversight. It can be done either way.
Traceability or "auditability" are two words I find useful.
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In the future![]()
3rd party addons are fine!![]()
@Paúl Are you in a lab ?![]()
@David Sean Fluidic automation is tough!![]()
@sebastian how secure can a raspberry pi really be? someone could just train a neural net on videos of cell colonies dying, then get the NN to spit out a completely unique video of a cell colony dying and claim it was from their drug!![]()
yeah, we are putting that one hold, but keep it open in that we will have an access port on the side![]()
@sebastian I am in a laboratory, but not a microbiology lab at the moment. feel free to PM me![]()
Disrupting Cell Biology Hack Chat
From a styrofoam box to lab grade instruments
