Lutetium-
Hack Chat Transcript, Part 3
07/24/2019 at 20:06 • 0 comments![]()
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@RichardCollins It seems like a natural progression of things and it's an approach that has worked for me![]()
you can use the web client for reading, I suppose https://kiwiirc.com/nextclient/#irc://irc.freenode.net/#hackaday![]()
@Joshua Lifton Understood. Thanks.![]()
@Kelly Heaton we haven't yet, but I've met Habib and others.![]()
@Patrick Van Oosterwijck Did that go just to you or everyone? I am new to this kind of chat.![]()
I was facing scrolling problem, but if you scroll fast around 10 to 20 chats upwards, it keeps quite and you can scroll down slowly.![]()
And Joi Ito was close to Crowd Supply. I liked his coining of the phrase "transition lab"![]()
As mentioned, Hackaday is a great place to start a project that ends up on Crowd Supply.![]()
Market validation is the name of the game.![]()
@RichardCollins It's a public chat I believe.![]()
@Joshua Lifton for the sake of clarity only, can you give us a description of the perfect project for Crowd Supply (your dream project)?![]()
@Kelly Heaton even after six years, I'm still pleasantly surprised by which projects succeed and what success looks like to the creators.![]()
For some people, it's just getting it out the door. For others, it's making some money and supporting their transition into a new career.![]()
The most critical common thing across all projects I consider successful is a true passion on the part of the creator for what they are doing. It's necessary, if not sufficient.![]()
I'm also partial to satellites.![]()
@Joshua Lifton thanks!![]()
Check out the updates for this project: https://www.crowdsupply.com/pylo/muart/updates![]()
You can clearly see the kind of attention to detail that only comes from caring a lot about the project.![]()
It is the microscale and crowd sourcing from people specifically interested in the results that is so powerful. People see these technologies and want to use them, but cannot get past some basics that your designers can provide.![]()
That's one of the paradoxes of this business: niche products do better.![]()
@Joshua Lifton Good answers. I believe "Passion" is a an essential element to all successfully delivered projects! :-)![]()
This is because a niche product has a well-connected audience, so you only need to tell a few of those people and suddenly everyone knows about it.![]()
If it fills a specific niche, that is really a specific engineering hurdle that many people are stuck on.![]()
and the author is usually part of that niche as well![]()
Yeah, without passion it's easy to give up when you hit the inevitable setbacks.![]()
@de∫hipu yep, exactly.![]()
I look forward to seeing what projects you all have going on.![]()
@Joshua Lifton I'll be in touch![]()
That's always the biggest problem, getting lost in the crowd. That's why I think a focused crowdsourcing platform like Crowd Supply is a better channel than a broad one like KS.![]()
One of the biggest mistakes of project creators is waiting until things are perfect before revealing them to the world.![]()
@Kelly Heaton great!![]()
Hi, Josh, any possibility to tell us more about "Field Reports initiative"? It seems that I've missed that or you didn't have a chance to told us about it more.![]()
@Patrick Van Oosterwijck agreed. On the other hand, if you are looking to raise money for an art project, Kickstarter is really great.![]()
@Denis yes, there's a pilot of the idea here: https://www.crowdsupply.com/lime-micro/limesdr-mini/updates/field-report-contest![]()
OK all, we've got an hour under our belts, so I'm going to call official time so Josh can get back to running Crowd Supply. Josh, feel free to stay on if you have time, of course, but for now I'll say another huge thanks for spending your time with us today. It's really been informative.Thanks everyone! And remember, next week we'll be talking about quick-turn PCB manufacturing with Mihir Shah from Royal Circuits: https://hackaday.io/event/165812-quick-turn-pcb-fab-hack-chat
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The basic idea is to give backers the chance to share what they're doing.![]()
Thank you!![]()
@Dan Maloney and everyone, thanks so much for having me!![]()
thanks![]()
@Joshua Lifton Thanks for your time and responses!![]()
I can stick around for a bit longer, but will drop off in a few.![]()
Our pleasure!![]()
Thank you!![]()
Also, passion is what gives the successful projects that extra "edge". ie. What makes for creating a better mousetrap. Or, perhaps it's just the perfectionism touch that passion adds, which delivers that extra edge. :-)![]()
Really good questions.![]()
Thank you! -
Hack Chat Transcript, Part 2
07/24/2019 at 20:04 • 0 comments![]()
Traction question?
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Bubbling it up:@Joshua Lifton On your intake form, you ask for traction (email signups or something like that), how much traction are you looking for to get started? Or how much traction do successful projects have when they apply?
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Piotr also runs his own PnP's: https://www.crowdsupply.com/1bitsquared/icebreaker-fpga![]()
Ah, traction. There are a few milestones: number of subscribers to a pre-launch page, number of those who convert to paying customers, response from the newsletter and other media, etc.![]()
Have you had products that ship w/ barebones firmware and then follow-up w/ improvements and full functionality? Like our solution (https://hackaday.io/project/163679-luxonis-depthai) we could probably ship earlier, and it will still have value, but it won't have nearly the firmware functionality we want it to have in the long-run.
So we're thinking we're just candid about that for early supporters, so that they can get the hardware and start toying with it, using it, and then see better more feature-rich firmware later.
![]()
I suspect it's more of an excuse to get a new shiny toy![]()
It really depends on how much you are looking to raise and the price/value ratio.![]()
I see a lot of projects raise in the $10K to $25K range. What about those?![]()
@Brandon that's certainly happened. The path from here to there needs to be clear, though.![]()
Traction-wise.![]()
@Tyler some of those have been our best sellers after the campaign.![]()
Thanks @Joshua Lifton that makes sense. So probably spell that out w/ approximate dates on the launch page.![]()
has the selling to mouser helped with logistics? It sounds like things like shipping could get a lot easier with such a larger distributor in the back. Also do you plan any cross promotions with mouser (think discounted part prices for campaings or so)![]()
You're saying $25k is your low or high end?![]()
@Brandon yep.![]()
@Tyler depends also on the price, not just the raise.![]()
@Joshua Lifton A challenge seems to be those of us outside the USA. eg. (Unexpected Maker in AUS). Where product needs to be shipped to USA too then be re-shipped to customers. When do you think you might be able to setup regional hubs for distribution? eg. AUS / NZL makers & customers can use a local Asia/Pacific? re-distribution point. Also, I imagine global shipping from Asia would be cheaper than from USA?![]()
@Johny Radio I was just saying that range pops up for many successfully funded projects on CrowdSupply.![]()
@Johny Radio our low end is about $100. Our high end is well over $1M.![]()
@Joshua Lifton I have also noticed the average pledge amount on CS sees higher than kickstarter. Do you have stats on that?![]()
"number of those who convert to paying customers" You mean pre orders?![]()
@Tyler yes, there are a lot of electronics projects that happily live in the ~$25k space.![]()
@Tyler our average cart size is over $200.![]()
@Johny Radio we make a distinction between crowdfunding and pre-orders.![]()
OK. There was a time that KS was in the $75 range. So much higher.![]()
is there a price range for products that sell specifically well or does price not matter as long as the value fits the price?![]()
The former is basically what you'd expect from a campaign, the latter are orders that pile up after the campaign while the product is being manufactured.![]()
@Joshua Lifton and that cart size is for all orders not just crowdfunding?![]()
@Prof. Fartsparkle value has to match price.![]()
Has any product failed badly and cost a lot to fix?![]()
of course but do higher priced products sell worse even though the value matches?![]()
Early adopters and innovators tend to be willing to pay more for more value, hence the success of "deluxe kits."![]()
They sell better.![]()
huh ok![]()
(usuallY)![]()
@RichardCollins there are all sorts of failures.![]()
you can buy the cheap stuff everywhere, I suppose![]()
No project has failed so badly that they didn't deliver, or in a small number of cases, give full refunds.![]()
For the cheap stuff it's really hard to compete with China. :)![]()
That's the thing we optimize the most for.![]()
Yeah, we generally don't sell stuff that is mass market.![]()
Unclear. What does this mean: "depends on number of those who convert to paying customers". If we haven't started selling yet, how could there be any?![]()
@Joshua, Why closed projects are not accepted, why do you prefer product to be open source.?![]()
@Johny Radio when your campaign launches, the first people you tell about it are the subscribers.![]()
You want to see how they react before telling anyone else.![]()
Launches on CS? But we're talking about your application process, before launching, before accepted into cs![]()
@raviypujar open source is what enables other people to build, learn, teach, innovate, etc. It has so much more leverage than closed source.![]()
For some context: before a crowdfunding campaign goes live, most creators have a pre-launch page that viewers can subscribe to. Ex. https://www.crowdsupply.com/solokeys/somu![]()
There must be some way to ask people what they want designed, tested and manufactured for small runs. Kind of micromanufacturing on demand. There are plenty of creative designers it seems, and this takes care of funding and manufacturing?![]()
@Johny Radio ah, I didn't catch that. You mean, how do you know if the project is worth pursuing on CS?![]()
@RichardCollins the problem with asking people what they want is that they often don't know and will therefore inadvertently lie to you. :)![]()
No, how does CS accept a project. You said depends on number of those who convert to paying customers, I thought![]()
Oh, sorry, that's not what I meant.![]()
@Johny Radio we accept projects based on the answers to two questions.![]()
@Joshua Lifton "open source" does not mean full public domain, i.e., zero copyright on the look / feel / branding... correct? (and hi, by the way! We were at the ML together)![]()
@Joshua Lifton Yes![]()
Well, three.![]()
@Kelly Heaton hi!![]()
and correct, it is very nebulous.![]()
The three questions are:![]()
1. Is this an interesting project?![]()
2. Can the plan presented succeed in raising the funds needed?![]()
hi!![]()
Hey @Arsenijs !![]()
3. Can the plan presented succeed in spending the funds raised to deliver its promise to backers?![]()
How fast can you type? I think you are the first hackchat host who is keeping up with the questions!![]()
If the answer is no to any of those questions, we try to help make it yes.![]()
I cannot type fast. :)![]()
@Darrell we had a discussion in September 2017 about launching my project. You had sent a list of queries which i had answered, but unfortunately never heard back on mails. Could i know the reason why project was not suitable for CS. So that i can fix next time before submitting?![]()
But answering these questions is my full-time job.![]()
you are not using the steno thingy? ;-)![]()
That's why Josh is designing his own stenography machine. :-).![]()
@raviypujar unfortunately, we had a very big backlog this year.![]()
What about packaging-- do you work with helping to create custom packaging/inserts?![]()
by the way, I tried that too with #Steno Keyboard![]()
@Joshua Lifton Question 1. is very subjective. How do you asses what is "an interesting project" ?![]()
Sorry we didn't get back to you - we'll look into it.![]()
@raviyogi9300 - hmmm, sorry about that. What was the project? I can look into it after the chat?![]()
1. Does if fill a gap in what tools and systems are available for much harder projects we can't do because we do not have the basic building blocks?2. Is it well-written and have they done a basic survey of users and applcations, costs and difficulties?
3. If is oversubscribed what plans do you have?
![]()
@Digicool Things honestly, it's a fairly low bar, because we know we're not perfect judges of what's interesting. More than our personal opinions is the reaction of other people.![]()
How to turn off auto scroll on this thing? Can't read on mobile![]()
Good reply! @Joshua Lifton![]()
@RichardCollins oversubscription is an interesting problem with a simple solution: change the expected ship date as more and more items are ordered.![]()
@Joshua Lifton I'm onboard with open source hardware... but what about design copyright and branding (the gestalt)?![]()
We built that feature into CS from day one.![]()
@Johny Radio Sorry, no way to turn off scrolling. Although you can compress each message - use the hamburger icon upper left![]()
I guess a good project following on something like hackaday.io is a good measure to tell whether there is general interest in the project![]()
@Johny Radio I'm afraid this chat is a constant work in progress, and has a lot of inconveniences...![]()
@Kelly Heaton there are many pieces that could be open source. Whether the branding being open source helps or is useful depends on the product.![]()
E.g., it may be better to keep it closed to make sure there aren't fakes.![]()
@Joshua Lifton Might have missed my early question on global distribution. eg. I imagine global shipping from Asia would be cheaper than from USA? ie. Are you looking at other distribution solutions for non USA based makers?![]()
@Patrick Van Oosterwijck correct.![]()
@Johny Radio I'm having the same scrolling problem. I scroll up really high to make it stop.![]()
@Patrick Van Oosterwijck Would you suggest that Hackaday.io and crowdsourcing work together to identify and encourage good Hackaday project to manufacture?![]()
I give up. Impossible to read this chat on mobile. Keeps jumping down when I try to read. Too bad, great topic. Bye!It was submitted with this name
Project Name: Valtrack-V2 GPS tracker
![]()
If you want to read the messages and you have an IRC client installed, you can join #hackaday on freenode![]()
@Johny Radio there will be a transcript posted later, and there is a one-way gateway on freenode irc![]()
@Johny Radio - I'll post a text transcript right after the chat. Might make it easier.![]()
@Digicool Things we're looking at shipping from Asia or the EU at the moment. The overhead of managing multiple facilities eats the gains.![]()
@raviypujar - great, thanks. I'll look at that shortly.![]()
unfortunately, you can't write from there yet![]()
@Joshua Lifton do you work with the E14 fund?Hack Chat Transcript, Part 1
07/24/2019 at 20:03 • 0 comments![]()
Hello everyone, it's that time again! Welcome to the Hack Chat, and welcome to Josh Lifton. He's CEO of Crowd Supply and we'll be talking all about crowdfunding and mentoring today.Hi Josh - can you start us off with a quick introduction?
![]()
Hello!![]()
Hello @Joshua Lifton :-)![]()
Well, I've been running Crowd Supply for about six years now.![]()
Before that, I spent some time at Puppet as a software engineer turned manager.![]()
ouch![]()
Before that I did a lot of independent contracting / start up work in the hardware and software space in NYC.![]()
And before that, I got my doctorate from the MIT Media Lab studying distributed sensor networks with Joe Paradiso.![]()
That's the short version, anyway.![]()
What made you start with Crowd Supply?![]()
I wanted to get back to hardware.![]()
Of course, there was a logical fallacy there.![]()
haha, of course![]()
It's hard to work on your own projects if you build a platform to help everyone else run theirs. :)![]()
but then everyone else can work on theirs easier![]()
Yeah, and I get to vicariously enjoy them.![]()
Actually, it's been awesome being exposed to so many cool projects and having the chance to give some input on them.![]()
That's probably the best part of my job - the constant exposure to new projects.![]()
how did you get to the idea of combining a crowdfunding site with fulfilment and shopping system?![]()
That, and the kombucha keg at the office.![]()
For reference, here's Josh's many-year project: https://www.crowdsupply.com/open-steno-project/stenosaurus![]()
We basically just looked at all the problems engineers and product designers were having and decided to take as much off their plate as possible.![]()
Fulfillment was a no-brainer. Turns out that ongoing sales and distribution is also difficult for a lot of people.![]()
Designing and building a product takes a different set of skills and personality traits than keeping it in production and shipping it to customers.![]()
Is it more like a kick-starters or a Tindie?![]()
The opening talk at last year's Supercon explains this well.![]()
Do you have a link handy?![]()
It's not really either and co-exists with those.![]()
Actuallym, forget it, someone will post it here![]()
I don't have a link. Someone does!![]()
Looks interesting![]()
What about the buyers and backers? Are you helping them to learn to use these products? Is that something you do, or do you try to get the designers to teach and support the users?![]()
Neither Tindie nor Kickstarter are really built for product development in the way Crowd Supply is.![]()
Cool![]()
We're limited by our capacity, so we mostly rely on backers and creators supporting each other. We facilitate as much as possible.![]()
One way we're doing that is with our new Field Reports initiative.![]()
A field report is basically a repot from a backer about how they are using a project.![]()
It shows off what can be done with a product.![]()
Cool!![]()
Hi, Patrick!![]()
If it take even a good hardware hacker time to locate the same basic information, then multiply that time by many users/adapters. Duplicated effort is one of the largest wastes of human time currently. Everyone doing the same lookups,due diligence, and going over the basics.![]()
You should ask backers for Field Reports. :)![]()
Hi Josh! :) Would I do so in a project update?![]()
Why should someone launch on crowd supply over kickstarter/indiegogo/etc? What % of product sales do you guys take?![]()
@Patrick Van Oosterwijck yep, exactly.![]()
@RichardCollins true, but that's also how a lot of education happens.![]()
@Joshua Lifton that talk did you mean the one by Bill Gross?![]()
Can't find the Supercon talk video, btw - still looking...![]()
@de∫hipu yeah, Bill Gross.![]()
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-66i7vM00vo
![]()
https://hackaday.com/2018/11/27/bill-gross-on-why-your-startup-will-succeed/
Bill Gross On Why Your Startup Will Succeed
Bill Gross is one of the great heros when it comes to technology incubators. Twenty years ago, he founded Idealab, a business whose business plan is to create more businesses. This started out with just a handful of companies in 1996, and has since gone on to found 150 companies, that have collectively raised three and a half billion dollars.
![]()
Dang, beat me to it![]()
@jolthoff there are a lot of reasons to choose Crowd Supply. Fundamentally, we speciallize in bringing new open source electronics to market, whereas other platforms are about raising money for an arbitrary thing.![]()
The upshot is that we have a much higher success rate and average raise, and we take a lot of the pain away - fulfillment, customer support, distribution, ongoing sales, etc.![]()
How is that specialty reflected in the platform?![]()
@Joshua Lifton Can you do just a batch run and not turn it to presales / sales after the campain ? (i.e. just do 1 single batch and that's it)![]()
@Johny Radio can you clarify?![]()
@Sylvain Munaut no, we try to keep a product in production for as long as it will sell.![]()
Hoping you could clarify your comment :)![]()
That's actually where we make most of our revenue - in-stock sales of products that launched on Crowd Supply.![]()
What about visibility? Kickstarter is the big name, and thus a lot more visible-- how does crowd supply help with getting over that hurdle-- advertising?![]()
@Joshua Lifton I am thinking about launching a product on Crowd Supply. I have at least a few questions. What do you recommend as a minimum interest level (email signups, crowd supply follows, etc) before launch? How many units are recommended for a first production run? How many additional units should be purchased? What percentage of CrowdSupply sales is crowdfunding vs pre-order vs order?![]()
does that mean you have to commit to crowdsupply to produce a product for a amount certain time?![]()
*certain amount of time![]()
@Johny Radio For one, they review your project before accepting it.![]()
@jolthoff KS is a bigger name and has more traffic, but it's spread across many more projects. Per project, we do better, and it shows in the funds raised.![]()
ooh ok didn't know that, thats kinda nice that its curated![]()
@Joshua Lifton But if the product has to be made in batch of 100, who supports the cost of the unsold inventory ? (i.e. when you want to ship unit 101, you basically have to make a new batch of 100 and then what if nobody wants the 99 others ?)![]()
@Johny Radio, @de∫hipu yes, we're highly selective. We end up rejecting about 90% of submissions.![]()
Those we accept, we work very closely with.![]()
@Sylvain Munaut that's always the risk of making hardware. :)![]()
@Prof. Fartsparkle not just curated, there are strict requirements: https://www.crowdsupply.com/about#user-rights![]()
@Sylvain Munaut we've developed a lot of tactics to handle the MOQ problem. It's usually solvable.![]()
@Patrick Van Oosterwijck Well, not if you do it by batch and don't start the batch until it's fully sold :p![]()
I have done a few kickstarter projects. I am interested in crowd supply they facilitate many of the aspects of the business I need the most help with (fulfullment, shipping, on-going sales). Fulfilling a kickstarter project is a big effort and can suck the life (and productivity) out of you.![]()
@Patrick Van Oosterwijck it's kind of *the* hardware manufacturing problem.![]()
@Tyler yep, that's why we're here.![]()
@Tyler we recommend setting the goal to be enough to manufacture as few as financially feasible, which I realize is a bit circular.![]()
Balancing price, COGS, MOQ, funding goal, and time is the art of hardware production.![]()
By the way, here are some basic guidelines for when to submit a project: https://www.crowdsupply.com/guide/when-to-submit![]()
do you also have contacts with the fabricators that proved to be most reliable?![]()
Yes: https://www.crowdsupply.com/providers![]()
Do you ever recommend products for designers to create? You must also see market trends and demand?![]()
And we can make recommendations based on each situation.![]()
@RichardCollins great question.![]()
does crowdsupply help in any part of the manufacturing process?![]()
@Joshua Lifton Interesting that you say also targeted at "ongoing sales". My first impression of the CrowdSupply website was that it is a Kickstarter like platform, not a place to come and shop (like a Tindie). ...until you figure that out. Perhaps some more attention needed to the presentation of the "Available" products Shop?![]()
On this page: https://www.crowdsupply.com/launch, it states the pricing for custom is up to 15% of gross campaign sales-- does this include all the help with production/stocking/fulfillment?![]()
We certainly nudge our creators in certain directions based on what we've seen, but we haven't yet commissioned anything.![]()
@Joshua Lifton What kind of support can you provide wrt to compliance ? (things like CE / FCC)![]()
@Joshua Lifton On your intake form, you ask for traction (email signups or something like that), how much traction are you looking for to get started? Or how much traction do successful projects have when they apply?![]()
@Prof. Fartsparkle we generally stay out of manufacturing, but we've been known to take over manufacturing after the initial batch has been successfully produced.![]()
@Sylvain Munaut we're not lawyers, but we can point to what other projects have successfully done.![]()
Our product will be handmade by us, to order. Would that fit crowd supply?![]()
@Digicool Things it's a careful balance between showing off new products and selling existing products.![]()
But I'm sure we could do better.![]()
oh ok interesting, did the creator sell the project to you or did you just take a larger cut after taking over manufacturing?![]()
@Johny Radio that method could certainly work with CS. Depends more on the product than the process.![]()
@Prof. Fartsparkle we enter an agreement where we basically front the capital and pay a per-unit fee to the creator.![]()
@Johny Radio - here's a project where the creator does his own manufacturing: https://www.crowdsupply.com/unexpected-maker/tinypico![]()
I think I might have missed a few questions - feel free to bubble them back to the top (bottom).![]()
hehe, he bought a PnP machine specially for this :)![]()
Could Hackaday.IO ask for/vote on certain core technologies to be created and available? Could there be a place to carry on a continuing discussion of cross-cutting technologies that many people would like to have?![]()
Crowd Supply Hack Chat with Josh Lifton
Crowdfunding and mentoring hardware hackers
