Lutetium-
Hack Chat Transcript, Part 2
04/01/2020 at 20:09 • 0 comments![]()
@Seb Lee-Delisle Sorry, I've been a little slow to keep up. Okay, so it's actually the same kind of interlock we use on ours, but our industrial lasers are connected to a tilt switch. So yours are connected to the estop signal pin, and estop kills it and bypasses any filter capacitance same as ours?![]()
What kind of permits do you need to operate a laser like these, in the public ?![]()
@cerrid kinda depends what you want it for and how much you want to spend. I think the lasercube is a good budget choice if you wanna get into coding lasers![]()
@riley.august something like that I'm sure![]()
https://www.laseros.com/laser/cube/ ~$1000 USD![]()
@Steven Smethurst very little in the UK - there's a government guidance document that you should be able to prove that you have adhered to and it's best to get training, but there's no official licence. Having said that, most venues/councils won't let you use them unless you can prove you're competent. In the US it's way more complex, you need different licences in different states!![]()
Also, I absolutely don't regret diving into the internals of lasers. I've been in the laser manufacturing biz for six years. I love this stuff.![]()
I was mostly curious on the diffs between industrial interlocks and performance interlocks because I figure your safety standards are way higher![]()
@riley.august good to hear 😊![]()
@riley.august I wouldn't count on it![]()
We can just lock a laser in an opaque box, hit go, and tell the operator not to kill himself![]()
The thing about industrial lasers is that they're not made to be seen![]()
You mentioned inappropriate power cut-off as damaging to a performance laser. Are there any other kinds of experience-won tips or advice you can think of the help newcomers avoid making simple-but-expensive mistakes?![]()
the biggest thing about operating lasers at shows isnt runing them, its making sure idiots dont do dumb things linke stand on speakers and stare into the beams![]()
@Steven Smethurst you can probably get the cheapest option on a laser cube if you're just experimenting in small to medium spaces![]()
you pretty much gotta babysit yoru gear all night![]()
for everyones sake![]()
@Duncan Beevers The hardest part about getting started is actually getting to try lasers. Unless you know other people in the industry, there's no where you can get your hands on stuff. I'm hoping to make lasers more accessible but there's a long way to go. It's a very homogenous industry right now.![]()
When communicating with the laser. Do you stream data to it, frame by frame?, or send the seen (group of frames) of data to it then start the seen, to roll though the frames?![]()
@psycon yeah you absolutely can't leave these things unattended![]()
@Seb Lee-Delisle For home experimentation, besides the laser, a computer, and basic ppe is there anything else someone who would be just getting into this need?![]()
@Steven Smethurst most interfaces use a point stream, so you manage each "frame" yourself. My system can be synced to a particular frame rate but by default it will animate things as fast as it can - the frame rate varies dependent on the complexity of what it needs to draw![]()
it can be a fun hobby though, i usually work on stage alongside of the talent for smaller shows and produce jsut as much of a live set as they do, jsut for peoples eyes instead of their ears![]()
i prefer doing liveshows as opposed to preprogramming![]()
@cerrid if you want beams you'll need a hazer of some sort. If you're careful about keeping the laser beam out of your eyes you probably don't need eyewear (although you can never be too careful)![]()
hazer is essential![]()
@psycon a lot of my work is graphics so not necessarily. But hazers are always fun![]()
In the 70s and 80s, no hazer was needed at the concerts I went to.![]()
your correct... for beam shows a hazer is esssential, for graphics, not at all![]()
does a simple fog machine with controllable output work as a hazer or are there purpose built devices for this?![]()
a fun effect actually is projecting through noseeum netting ( like the stuff on a screen door)![]()
Yeah, for something like Laser Asteroids, would a hazer make the experience illegible?![]()
yes![]()
you would need a flat surface duncan![]()
@Cerrid hazers are purpose built and are essentially more controllable smoke machines with a built in fan - you can probably get away with a smoke machine at home but hazers are better if you can get one![]()
@Duncan Beevers probably not. It always looks better with a bit of haze, even graphics![]()
:)![]()
3-d asteroids, that'd be awesome :)![]()
When experimenting there is something else nobody mentioned. LASER. GOGGLES.![]()
i would also like to add,, i have had soo many bad experiences with fog machines tripping a voltage sensor inside of many lasers whenever their heater turns on or you blast, requiring a reboot of the the laser... a nightmare if it happens during showtime![]()
Once your show is set up and safetied the goggles can come off, but if you're messing around in your lab, you duct tape goggles to your face![]()
@cerrid you can actually project 3d laser graphics although I've never tried it![]()
That's a great anecdote. Thanks @psycon![]()
@riley.august someone did mention them already. Like I said, you can't be too careful but I generally run the lasers at very low brightness to position them, then only put them full power once they're safe![]()
Oh good, yes. Glad that did get covered. <3![]()
Sorry. This chat's kinda background. Apologies if I'm missing stuff.![]()
What are the big challenges of laser fireworks?![]()
There were a lot of comments on the Tom Scott video saying that we were being reckless for being in the same room as a laser without goggles. Or even looking at the dot it projects on the wall. I think that's probably because of styropyro - but with professional lasers there's no real risk once it's set up![]()
and of course with handheld lasers like styropyro uses, they're a lot more out of control than my units![]()
Has Styropyro kind of ruined things for laser pros?![]()
@aerickson did you see the instagram videos? It was a really fun project, building the light rods was the hardest part. But there are other challenges - tracking the rods with cameras, and syncing the LEDs up with the lasers. It was the first time we tried it in February and it worked perfectly. Big plans for that system :)![]()
@Dan Maloney @Seb Lee-Delisle ...yeah, gas lasers area a pain, but the amount of gear to produce 1W of RGB laser output is more like the size of a clunky piece of furniture than a car. Tubes like the Spectra-Physics 171 could get into the 20W range, but are no tame job to feed...480V 3PH and hefty water cooling requirements for both the power supply AND tube. For a while frequency-doubled YAGs (sometimes combined with argon or a dye-laser system) were popular because you could get A LOT of laser light out of a not-too-unreasonable-to-handle package![]()
@Dan Maloney jus wait till he loses an eye![]()
Or someone else's...![]()
even worse ya![]()
@Dan Maloney I don't think so - I love styropyro - but it seems that some people are getting a lasercube to burn things, and honestly I don't really see the appeal![]()
sebs setup looked safe to me![]()
@Seb Lee-Delisle You mentioned using a 12w laser early, is it possible to experiment at home with a lower wattage laser or is 12w the optimal minimum?![]()
@david.francus thanks for that, yeah I have no experience of that except when I went to laserium in 1985 😊![]()
I guess it all depends on where you are in the hormone curve - destruction has its max appeal earlier, I think![]()
@cerrid 12w is way too much to use at home. Sometimes I have to test things out here and its INTENSE. Let me see if I can find pictures. But 1W is plenty for home use![]()
im always a safety nazi when it comes to doing a show.. giving myself at least an hour to do a presetup safety check any time i enter a new venue, to set ceilings, blackout zones and whatnot![]()
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This is 4 x 4W lasers in my home work room![]()
no haze?![]()
That looks heckin sweet![]()
Wow, that's awesome :)![]()
whoa![]()
![]()
![]()
This is a fun interactive dance project I worked on![]()
oooooo and ahhhhhhhh![]()
nice!![]()
Oh that's cool![]()
i got a question abotu the tom scott vid.... what did it look like in person![]()
@Seb Lee-Delisle Is it possible/have you done anything with light wave interference/amplification patterns?![]()
This is me testing out 6 x 12W in my living room. It was scary https://www.instagram.com/p/Bx8NKdJhYdC/![]()
like, could that effect be added to laser os so the visulizations look normal to ppl at the show, but looks weird AF on camera![]()
@psycon it just looked like a single beam that was flickering slightly![]()
@psycon - most laser effects look freaky in rolling shutter without even really trying![]()
@cerrid I have not![]()
indeed![]()
Oops - just looked up at the time and saw that we've burned through our hour. If Seb needs to get back to work we should let him, but everyone can feel free to stay on and keep the chat going. I'll just say an official thanks to Seb for his time today. I really learned a lot!![]()
@psycon you need to tune the effect with the camera so it has to be quite specific![]()
@Seb Lee-Delisle thank you :)![]()
Thank you !![]()
It's 9pm my time so I'm happy to hang around - thanks for having me @Dan Maloney !![]()
Thanks for the chat Seb, I learned a lot about laser applications I don't normally touch.![]()
My pleasure!We'llbe switching things up next week with an open-forum Hack Chat on COVID-19 brainstorming:
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https://hackaday.io/event/170568-brainstorming-covid-19-hack-chat
Brainstorming COVID-19 Hack Chat
Join us for an open-forum Hack Chat on Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at noon Pacific Time. Time zones got you down? Here's a handy time converter! The COVID-19 pandemic has been sweeping across the globe now for three months.
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I really like the triple-laser-harp at Meow Wolf. ![]()
you can play your own laser harps with laserlightsynths.com![]()
-
Hack Chat Transcript, Part 1
04/01/2020 at 20:08 • 0 comments![]()
Hi everyone, welcome to the Hack Chat. I'm not sure I saw Seb login yet - are you here, Seb?![]()
Oooh, it's THAT kind of laser artistry![]()
Yes indeed![]()
Yeah those lasercubes are neat![]()
I laser cut leather phone cases and stuff? ^^![]()
they are indeed, ive had em since prototype![]()
and its predecessor of course![]()
Hi Seb! Welcome!![]()
Hi everyone! Sorry I'm a bit late, I was in the wrong place 😊![]()
lol![]()
hi seb![]()
No worries, welcome to the Hack CHat Seb. And thanks everyone for turning out today to learn a little about Seb's work with lasers.Can you start us off with a little about yourself, Seb?
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Yeah sure! I'm a maker, artist, coder, laserist, and I specialise in large outdoor interactive installations. I've been working with lasers since 2013, and I've written my own laser control library. My plan this year was to replace fireworks with LED light sticks and lasers, that's been somewhat scuppered by the current situation so I've now been working on a couple of 3D printed medical PPE projects. AMA, I guess? 😊![]()
Yeah, we've been doing the medical PPE side of things lately too. What kind of output are you looking at for these lasers?![]()
I generally use multiple 12W RGB lasers but I've used a couple of 30W previously. I have built up quite a collection!![]()
what do u think about using someting like the tap strap 2 keyboard to control stuff live![]()
*googles tap strap 2 keyboard*![]()
Ooh, so you're actually in the range our beam combiners can get our solid state lasers up to. Sweet.![]()
I was really curious if you could do any of these things with 8-14W solid state, sounds like yes![]()
oh looks like a fun controller - would definitely be fun to play with that![]()
what's a tap strap 2?![]()
think nintendo glove for the nes but cooler![]()
Oh, air keyboard![]()
it looks a bit like the MIMU glove![]()
yeah![]()
What kind of safety precautions do you have to take when working with lasers in a public display?![]()
do not point in peoples faces![]()
ever![]()
In my experience the laser side has been the easy side. Deflecting the laser in a controlled manner is the hard part. What do you use? Galvos, servos, steppers?![]()
Have you ever used MEMS scanning mirrors rather than galvos out of interest?![]()
That's always a good start :)-![]()
Do not look into laser with remaining eye![]()
lol![]()
MEMS scanners dont get used for laser display (as in show) applications too often because they can't take the required power density.![]()
literally burns the optics![]()
@riley.august You have a remaining eye? I'm jealous :)![]()
@Cerrid - good question, I generally don't point lasers at humans, if you want to do that there's a whole bunch of extra gear and paperwork that you have to do. The main thing is making sure that the laser beam can't go anywhere you don't want it to. First you limit it in code, then you limit it physically where possible, using metal foil tape. You also have to look out for reflective surfaces, glitter balls etc. There is also an emergency stop button that breaks a special connection in the laser and causes it to immediately cease. Generally you don't want a laser to be anywhere below 3m above the ground where the public go.
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seb what kinda DAC do u use![]()
@matthewkleinmann the standard these days is galvos. There's an analogue standard made by ILDA, the International Laser Display Association.![]()
So the emergency stops you guys use aren't just power interlocks?![]()
ah interesting @david.francus![]()
@psycon mostly I use etherdreams but my code also works with laserdock (the same controller as in the laser cube), IDN (the new standard from ILDA) and I'm working on a couple of others.The laserdock can be good if I'm just doing a quick demonstation - it's USB. Otherwise I'll set up the whole network and put multiple etherdreams on it.
![]()
@riley.august yeah if you just pull the power it's bad - the laser won't turn off immediately and the galvos will likely swing to their greatest extent. That's why you have to use the interlock system in the laser.I've done a ton of work in the last year or two figuring out smart ways to manage this that I will go to in excruciating detail if that is what you want 😊
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I have not done laser stuff since the C64 days, I had a pretty cool setup with a HeNe tube, a pair of 8 bit ADC's that sat on the expansion port of the C64 that drove power opamps, pen galvos from an old pen plotter and a rotary solenoid to interrupt the beam. Things seem to have changed a lot. Lots more inexpensive powerful lasers and crazy cheap electronics.![]()
What software do you use to drive everything?![]()
@matthewkleinmann yeah it's ridiculous now. When I started I could only ever afford to rent one 12W laser for £1200 a day, they cost €50,000 to buy, now the price is about 10 times cheaper so now I own all the gear I need![]()
nice, do u have a github or anything we can follow![]()
What's a good starter ILDA laser?![]()
@Jordan Horwich I've released my own laser control code library ofxLaser - it's an add-on for openframeworks and is available on my GitHub. It's quite powerful these days. @psycon http://github.com/sebleedelisle![]()
@aerickson I really like the lasercube. It's cheap and it has a built in controller. It's not ILDA though! But my code works with it. It has bad scanners but they're great for the price. The entire thing is cheaper than just the scanners alone in one of my other lasers 😊![]()
@aerickson if you need ILDA I have some suggestions - what power / budget are you looking at ?![]()
laser library is at http://github.com/sebleedelisle/ofxLaser![]()
How do you prevent or reduce the risk of people throwing reflective things in the path of the laser beam, while at festivals ?![]()
Does ofxLaser include knobs for timing control like in the rolling-shutter demos?![]()
I do display fireworks and one thing I thought would be very cool, but hard to do would be to put a laser on a drone and others with mirrors. Let you draw lines with many less drones. Getting it to hit a small moving target and ensuring it could never point down would be hard though.![]()
Low power/cost for home experimenting.![]()
@Steven Smethurst it'd have to be perfectly reflective like a mirror for it to be a problem. The laser never goes below 3m above the floor so it'd be tough.![]()
that makes sense![]()
What was one of your favorite events, and why ?![]()
@Duncan Beevers it's lower level than that but you might have seen the rolling shutter effect I did with Tom Scott? (and my geekier follow up : ![]()
u did that?![]()
that thing was cool![]()
@Steven Smethurst I'm not sure I have a favourite. The last thing I did was my first attempt to get laser fireworks, so it was really rewarding. I built LED light sticks, and synched them up with the lasers.![]()
@psycon yeah I'm in that video 😊![]()
can it be done with laserdock?![]()
Yeah, those are the videos I'm referencing. Were you tweaking ofxLaser for those demos, or did you need to hand roll-that outside of the framework?![]()
@psycon yeah if you look at my video, the small tests I do are with the lasercube![]()
https://hackaday.com/2020/03/05/camera-and-code-team-up-to-make-impossible-hovering-laser-effect/
Camera And Code Team Up To Make Impossible Hovering Laser Effect
Right off the bat, we'll say that this video showing a laser beam stopping in mid-air is nothing but a camera trick. But it's the trick that's the hack, and you've got to admit that it looks really cool. It starts with the [Tom Scott] video, the first one after the break.
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Have you worked with lower-wavelength lasers and glow-in-the-dark surfaces for persistence effects?![]()
@Duncan Beevers it's done via ofxLaser to manage the laser output and positioning, but I'm sending it raw data. So kind of bypassing all its graphics optimisation abilities![]()
oh i didnt see that part of the video.. such a cool effect tho.. ive always loved how the shutter effect looks in some video captures, amazing how you eploited it![]()
@Duncan Beevers I haven't but check Christopher Robin Shorts work if you haven't seen it![]()
Will do!![]()
@psycon it was a really fun project![]()
@psycon the laser cube bit is in my video![]()
@Seb Lee-Delisle Yes, actually, I would be really interested in hearing more about safety interlocks for lasers. We mostly make industrial lasers and for outdoor use there's much higher response time standards, from what I'm picking up. I'm really interested in the reqs for that.![]()
@Riley professional lasers will always have an interlock input. They're often RJ45 but can also be DB9, XLR, or random connectors. They're hopelessly non standard. The laser will only work if the two wires of its interlock connector are connected. So if you have 8 lasers, each one will need its own cable and its own stop button but that's ridiculous. Some lasers can daisy chain the interlock signal but that depends on you using all the same brand of laser.
So what I've been working on is twofold.... it's getting geeky are you regretting this yet @riley.august ?
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1. How to manage multiple lasers with different brands and formats with one stop button![]()
2. How to reduce all the cabling by using spare wires in a CAT5 cable to sneak the interlock signal down it![]()
so in answer to 1 - I've built some custom boards that take one stop signal and break it out into multiple stop connections using relays![]()
And the for 2 - those signals are routed down the same CAT5 cable that is driving the network signal for the lasers controller![]()
Once that cat5 cable gets to the laser, I then need to split out the interlock and data parts![]()
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Here's the design for the splitter case![]()
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Here's the board that incorporates the relays and a network switch![]()
*everyone tunes out* haha![]()
If you check my instagram https://www.instagram.com/seb_ly/ you can see the fireworks project that I mentioned![]()
lots of pictures of the build process too![]()
@Seb Lee-Delisle umh, what was that? =8-) Seriously, do you you physical relays or a form of electronic relay?![]()
err, do you use physical relays or...![]()
all my documentation is videos so kinda hard to post here but check my showreel at ![]()
@cerrid the original boards I designed (and still use) have electromechanical relays but I recently switched to photorelays![]()
Possibly more interesting things on my youtube channel which intermittently has interesting things https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCD_8q1KAC3vzQumIsN7Zsig![]()
How did you get started with lasers?![]()
Question more on the history of lasers: before the current generation of LED lasers, were they mostly using tube lasers? Seems really sketchy for the abuse of being on the road (thinking concert lasers here).![]()
@aerickson it was for PixelPyros - an earlier digital fireworks installation. Pixelpyros.com It used ordinary projectors but it wasn't bright enough, so I added a laser to it to get extra sparkles. Since then it kinda escalated.
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@Seb Lee-Delisle also, @aerickson asked earlier about a low power/cost laser recommendation for home experimentation, is the lasercube the recommended for that or would you recommend something else?![]()
@Dan Maloney yeah I think they were using gas lasers and even a 1W would be the size of a car and need a fresh water supply for cooling. I know little about those days but I'm glad I'm where we are now!About Us Contact Hackaday.io Give Feedback Terms of Use Privacy Policy Hackaday API
In the 70s and 80s, no hazer was needed at the concerts I went to.
