TindieChat

Jasmine Brackett : We're really pleased to have @Zach Dunham from Kickstarter here.

Zach Dunham : Thanks for inviting me, Jasmine!

Jasmine Brackett : We've been discussing the cross over between Tindie/Hackaday and various crowdfunding communities and we're here to answer any questions.

Jon Buford : I just finished a campaign on Indiegogo for Atomo, a modular electronics system, the kind of thing you can find on Tindie. I found that even with being Arrow Certified, IGG ended up burying the campaign because it doesn't fit their categories well.

Does Kickstarter have a better way to make campaigns of hard technology bubble up for those people that it would be meaningful for or anything else that might be an advantage? The Arrow Certification and the design review was good, especially talking with potential distributors, but I don't feel that IGG as a platform performs well for Tindie-like projects.

Zach Dunham : Cool. Well congrats to Jon for wrapping up the campaign.

We have a few different ways that we highlight these types of projects

Our DIY electronics category is a good place to start browsing — there’s everyone from Paul Stoffregen from Teensy, to a creator like Patrick Thomas who’s run over 20 electronics projects.

The way that we celebrate and highlight these campaigns varies from tagging and grouping them so they’re easy for backers to find, to highlighting them in our Invent Newsletter. We also recommend projects to backers based on their interests and past projects they've backed. This doesn’t mean that you don’t still need to work to promote your project, but we take an active role in making sure that a variety of projects are featured, not just big campaigns, and that they’re getting in front of the right audiences.

Jasmine Brackett : You can check out the category here: https://www.kickstarter.com/discover/categories/technology/diy%20electronics

IIt seems it's similar to Tindie in that although we help promote products, the best results seem to come from tapping into your communities and connections.

Ok, @Chris Gammell, you had a couple of questions?

Chris Gammell : Was curious about the new request for projects

Just what they're hoping for, specifically Zach

Zach Dunham : Yea! This is something new for us.

Chris Gammell : If I'm being blunt, it seems like a bad idea

and I love me some Kickstarter

only because i think it prompts people to jump in before they're ready

that's how it reads for me

Zach Dunham : Hah! Well thanks for being honest! It's definitely not our intention to push people to launch early.

Chris Gammell : so maybe the right question is, is there coaching for those folks who submit something?

or is there a checklist in your mind for how to know when they might be ready?

I just worry about the manufacturability of something for hw

Zach Dunham : Part of the goal here is to get a chance to talk about the types of projects, we as a team and as a platform are excited about.

Chris Gammell : Ah cool, OK

Zach Dunham : There's not a lot of line of sight into the inner workings of Kickstarter. Request for projects is a chance to for us to say, there's a team of people here focusing on supporting these types of projects.

Chris Gammell : so it's more about prospecting of projects that might be at prototype

Zach Dunham : And, we think these are important areas to highlight.

Chris Gammell : and ready to move forward

Jasmine Brackett : Sounds pretty interesting. You can read more about it here (after the chat) https://www.kickstarter.com/blog/our-design-and-tech-teams-request-for-projects

Zach Dunham : Ah, well I think this is about us saying, if you're working on a project in one of these areas, and are interested or have been thinking about using Kickstarter, we're here to help.

Chris Gammell : got it! Would love to hear more about the 'manufacturability' piece too, but I'll let others ask questions in the meantime

Zach Dunham : But, absolutely not about pushing people to launch before they're ready

Chris Gammell : because i think it's relevant to all projects, not just the ones being requested

Zach Dunham : Cool! Yea, happy to talk more about that too.

spencer : So, if I'm reading it correctly, you're after tools for creating, boundary pushing and delightful design?

Is there anything more specific, or is it just the three fairly broad categories you're trying to push for?

Zach Dunham : Yes, and those are pretty general titles. My two teammates are focusing on design and science related projects. I'm focusing on "creative tools"

For creative tools, it's everything from digital fabrication tools, to musical instruments.

I admit that it's still somewhat broad. At the same time it does help us be more proactive in helping folks. And these areas of focus will continue to shift over time.

For creative tools, I'm also interested in building blocks and tools like particle or teensy or other single board modules that folks can prototype with.

For me, that's squarely in the realm of creative tools. Does that help clarify, Spencer?

spencer : Yeah, thanks.

Jasmine Brackett : Thanks Zach. I think @Nick Sayer has a question too.

spencer (I don't think any of my stuff really fits those categories... but I don't really have anything that needs crowdfunding right now anyway)

Zach Dunham : No sweat. And for what it's worth, it's not to say that we won't help anyone outside of these categories.

It's just that we're taking more of an initiative to support this stuff.

Nick Sayer : Hi. I am not sure my question really boils down to something susinct. I've not had good success with crowdfunding so far and have just foregone it. I do have something that I've been considering to go back again with - buying a USB VID for myself - but have questions about finding marketing channels that are appropriate and not annoying. I guess what it comes down to is that I see that folks who have succeeded bring their own audiences - notably RiffTrax and MST3K and stuff.

I hope I am not sounding whiny. :)

Jasmine Brackett says:

I guess this question isn't just for Zach, but for anyone who has experience with crowdfunding.

Please chip in.

Benchoff : MST3K.

spencer : My only crowdfunding experience is from the buying point of view, but just about every campaign I've backed has been ones that people I know have already backed. (sorry, that's probably not very helpful though)

Nick Sayer : AT32UC3A4128S

Nick Sayer : oops

Zach Dunham : It's a common question. Running a campaign definitely means putting yourself out there. And for a lot of people, it can feel like you're spamming, just by asking folks to contribute. I would say that we do a lot of work to help creators think about the best way to present their ideas so they really resonate with our audience and the general public. MST3K had a huge amount of support directly from the KS community.

Nick Sayer :

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rifftrax/rifftrax-live-17-samurai-cop-beach-party-and-myste

KICKSTARTER RIFFTRAX: MIKE, BILL & KEVIN

RiffTrax Live '17: Samurai Cop, Beach Party & Mystery Title! RiffTrax: Mike, Bill & Kevin is raising funds for RiffTrax Live '17: Samurai Cop, Beach Party & Mystery Title! on Kickstarter! RiffTrax is doing three live shows in 2017 simulcast to theaters nationwide: SAMURAI COP + SUMMER SHORTS BEACH PARTY + a MYSTERY TITLE! Read this on Kickstarter >

Jasmine Brackett : Wow. I guess it's a little more sharable than a lot of boards.

Kris Winer : There are two aspects to crowdfunding that are useful: one is the exposure and one os the money. For those who do not need the money, like myself, the challenge is to balance the work required to comply with posting at a crowdfunding source with the possibility of more exposure. So far this balance has not worked in my favor. I am always looking for more effective marketing approaches. I do not think kickstarter has worked well for me.

Nick Sayer : That resonates with me. I thought of a kickstarter for Orthrus, but I don't really need to raise money for that so much (though that DOES bring up the USB VID issue).

Zach Dunham : What would you say the challenges are around compliance?

Zach Dunham : ^ For @Kris Winer

Kris Winer : It's just a lot of work to post a kickstarter campaign. My one and only attempt did not repay the effort.

CaptMcAllister : My recommendation is to start small and build a little following and grow from there. Too many people have the expectation that their first campaign is going to net $50k.

Zach Dunham : That's true, and goes back to what I was saying about it being a place to grow community, rather than build from scratch. Also, not every campaign needs to be a $50K+ campaign.

Kris Winer : Crowdsourcing, if I were to try again, is a marketing tool for me, not a source of funding. I don’t need the money. I need the exposure and customers. So crowdsourcing is not a great fit really.

Nick Sayer : How does a kickstarter in and of itself net you exposure, though?

Zach Dunham : I think exposure and community engagement are good goals to have in a campaign.

Jasmine Brackett : I think getting a good video up can be a hurdle for first timers. Also, knowing what kind of info to provide in the descriptions.

CaptMcAllister : People wander into Kickstarter to see what's new

Nick Sayer : That benefits the top-of-heap projects more than anyone else though.

CaptMcAllister : I think around 50% of my campaign page visits were through Kickstarter.

Kris Winer : People scan for new projects just like on Tindie scanning for new products and there is a certain amount of exposure there. of course, if you are going to take the trouble to follow all of the steps to complete the crowdfunding post requirements you will spend a bit of time spamming your friends, etc. There is some extra exposure, but not enough to warrant the effort in my experience.

CaptMcAllister : Not in my case. My campaign was little, but got lots of nice traffic: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1710326172/boostick-small-aa-voltage-booster?ref=user_menu

CaptMcAllister : I don't want to badmouth Tindie, but I sold more units in 2 hours on Kickstarter on a Friday night than I did in months on Tindie.

CaptMcAllister : With basically no promotion

Nick Sayer : My experience is exactly the opposite of that. :)

Kris Winer : Me too.

CaptMcAllister : I think it's going to depend on the audience. What I was selling was pretty basic and everyone from beginner upward could pick one up on impulse

Jasmine Brackett :

Kickstarter definitely has a larger and wider audience.

CaptMcAllister : If you've got something that's really unique and esoteric, you've got to build that community first, and Kickstarter can only help you so much.

Jasmine Brackett : Which can both work for and against, depending on the product.

CaptMcAllister : That's a good point Jasmine.

Jasmine Brackett : Tindie works best for the hardware niche. But if you have something that is more end product than a kit or component, then Kickstarter may be better.

spencer : I feel like I'm a big fish in a small pond at Tindie - but fear I'd be a small fish in a big pond at Kickstarter. So Tindie works great for me

Zach Dunham : There's definitely a lot of projects on Kickstarter at any moment - usuaIly there are ~1000 between design and technology each month along. I will say that comparing campaigns without much context is pretty hard.

Jasmine Brackett : Also, both @Kris Winer and @Nick Sayer have many items on Tindie, so get quite a lot of search traffic. Sellers with just one item, tend to have to do more of their own promo to get good sales.

Radomir Dopieralski : I wonder, if you are growing a community anyways, why would you want it to be attached to Kickstarter, and not existing on its own?

Zach Dunham : I'd also go back to the point that you should have a goal for what you want out of a campaign. Not just money. Know what success would look like for you, outside of $$. And the one other point again.. It doesn't just have to be about a big project. Making 10/20 or 100 of something can be a great campaign.

Zach Dunham : I think that's a great question.

Jasmine Brackett : Tindie is growing and we see that there is opportunity for people to try stuff out here, then crowd fund; or crowd fund and then sell overstock or second runs on tindie.

Zach Dunham : @Radomir Dopieralski I guess it depends on the type of project. If it's something where there's an open SDK and a forum for users to share code and ideas and you've reached critical mass, then doing things in your own environment or platform is maybe better.

Kickstarter never wants to be the endpoint for your project. It's a tool you can use along the way, whether that's raising funds or raising funds + getting feedback on an idea. But ideally projects live on into the future, off of KS.

Oh, I wanted to share a resource too.

https://d3mlfyygrfdi2i.cloudfront.net/GettingStartedDT.pdf

D3MLFYYGRFDI2I

Jasmine Brackett : Thanks for that.

Zach Dunham : @Chris Gammell for your question around manufacturability of campaigns, here's what we're looking for in terms of demos too.

https://www.kickstarter.com/blog/pointers-for-sharing-your-prototype

KICKSTARTER

Pointers for Sharing your Prototype Over the years we've seen hundreds of outstanding design and technology creators share engaging behind-the-scenes documentation of their projects. Providing backers with a clear sense of where their project stands, and what a first hand experience with a new technology looks like, is what distinguishes them from other campaigns. Read this on Kickstarter >

CaptMcAllister : Hey Zach, one thing that would be really cool is if there was a way to drop ship a huge package of stuff to Europe and then have it opened and distributed.

Benchoff : ^would be awesome

CaptMcAllister : For example, my product was maybe 1/4" too thick to use the $3 shipping to Europe in a 6"x9" envelope

spencer : ^ and same in the opposite direction :-)

Jasmine Brackett : That's an issue for quite a few tindie sellers.

Zach Dunham : Yea, it'd be helpful for navigating VAT in some cases too probably.

CaptMcAllister : So if there was a service where I could ship a huge case of pre-addressed envelopes to Europe, and someone could open the box and drop them in the post, that would have saved me hundreds in shipping, and mine was just a small campaign.

Jasmine Brackett : We'd love to find a logistics partner for that.

Jasmine Brackett : Anyway, It's about time to wrap up.

CaptMcAllister : I looked around on Alibaba and couldn't find anyone suitable (surprisingly)

It's a business idea for someone!

Nick Sayer : doesn’t that concept create VAT issues?

Jasmine Brackett : Thanks to Zach. We appreciate him taking the time.

Nick Sayer : At least going in to EU

Nick Sayer : yes, thanks

Zach Dunham : I'm not a shipping and logistics expert, but hub and spoke models for fulfillment can make it easier.

Kris Winer : Thanks Zach!

Zach Dunham : At least what I've heard.

Jasmine Brackett : You're all welcome to hang out and chat as usual.

Zach Dunham : No problem! Thanks for having me!

CaptMcAllister : Thanks Zach

Zach Dunham : @CaptMcAllister check out BlackBox for fulfillment.

spencer : @Nick Sayer Yes, smaller value shipments don't have tax applied. Bigger ones do. So a balancing act for cost of shipping vs cost of tax

CaptMcAllister : Will do. Thanks for the referral.

spencer says: : Thanks Zach

Zach Dunham : My pleasure

Jasmine Brackett : @Zach Dunham, feel free to pop back from time to time if you have any updates :)

RoGeorge : Interesting chat, thank you!

Zach Dunham : Will do! Thanks @Jasmine Brackett

Jasmine Brackett : Btw - If anyone is going to be at Maker Faire Bay Area on the 19-21, let me know. We're going to have a booth and there will be a meetup on Saturday night.

Jasmine Brackett : If you want to demo any of your products in person, or send a small demo item for us to display, get in touch.

Jasmine Brackett : Thanks everyone. Thats a wrap for this TIndieChat!

Tuesday May 2nd @ 1pm PT over in the #Tindie Dog Park.

Some sellers test their ideas on Tindie and build up to doing a crowd funding campaign, or complete a campaign and then come over to Tindie to sell excess inventory or second runs. Either way, there's a lot of great options for bringing your project to market.

We've got @Zach Dunham joining us for May's TindieChat. He's the Design & Technology Outreach Lead at Kickstarter and has a background in hardware and audio arts. He'd love to hear your experiences and can answer any questions that you might have about launching a campaign.

Also, @Jasmine Brackett from Tindie will be the host and can also provide advice for anyone wondering what to do after their campaigns and selling on TIndie.

Maybe you've had an incredibly successful campaign and have advice for others? We'd love to hear your tips in this TIndieChat!

You can post questions in advance on this doc. They can be for Zach, the Tindie Team, or the community in general.

Jasmine Brackett says:2 hours ago

Hello Everyone! We're about to start this month's TindieChat!

Sophi says:2 hours ago
We have a list of really interesting questions to discuss : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fjg6d_P5X8G3S2_oS8ZAS3araAGHciqVTALV3ghf25g/edit#gid=1843618346

Sophi says:2 hours ago
This is a chat where people can share their experiences and an ask general about getting certifications. However, please be aware that we're not lawyers and can't answer very specific questions. You still need to do your due diligence for your specific situation.


Jasmine Brackett says:2 hours ago
Before we get into individual questions, I'd like you to let us know:

- Who here has a product with FCC, CE, or OSHAC?

- And for FCC/CE did you do it in-house or use another company?



Gordon Williams says:2 hours ago
The Espruino Original and Pico boards I sell have CE and RoHS - I got them certified by an external company



Sophi says:2 hours ago
@Gordon Williams how much did it cost?



Sophi says:2 hours ago
And did you have to send the boards away to get them certified?

todbot says:an hour ago

Our blink(1) USB light is getting FCC & CE marks for current production run

Gordon Williams says:an hour ago

@Sophi I can't remember exactly how much it was, but it was around $1500 if I recall - I'll check now. And yes, I had to send (just one) away.

Max Vilimpoc says:an hour ago

@Gordon Williams: What kind of documentation did you have to provide?

Dirty Engineer says:an hour ago

did it pass first try?Sophi says:an hour ago

@Gordon Williams how long did it take to get back?

Max Vilimpoc says:an hour ago

@Gordon Williams Did they tell you what they had to check?

Gordon Williams says:an hour ago

Just checked. CE and RoHS came to $1300 - that's via Seeed, using SGS for one board and Shenzen CTL for the other. I can't remember exactly - it was maybe 2 weeks?

Gordon Williams says:an hour ago

I didn't have to provide any documentation - but it's possible that Seeed did - and yes, it passed first time

Gordon Williams says:an hour ago

They give you a test report showing how well it did and whether it passed. However at the end of the day *I* have to sign the declaration

Gordon Williams says:an hour ago

I think. Could be wrong there - it was over a year ago now

todbot says:an hour ago

My experiences are the same as @Gordon Williams: we use Seeed for assembly and they handled the FCC & CE tests. We had to submit fully-assembled samples. And it cost about the same. We were just going for FCC Unintentional Radiator test and CE EMC & LVP directives

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

@todbot - are part way through the process? Is it similar to Gordon's experience so far? GOrdon is based in the UK and you're in CA, USA.

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

:)Dirty Engineer says:an hour ago

interesting.. cheaper than I thought.

todbot says:an hour ago

I think both of these examples are non-RF devices. It gets expensive fast if you don't use pre-certified modules

todbot says:an hour ago

If you use pre-certified modules, then I think you can do FCC unintentional radiator tests for the most part

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

Good to know.

Gordon Williams says:an hour ago

Yes, it was cheaper than I thought too. As @todbot says I intentionally used modules for Puck.js because I'd heard scary things about CE certifying wireless stuff

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

Can you do FCC & CE at the same time? Is it just different declarations?

todbot says:an hour ago

Yes, you can do FCC & CE at the same time. Different tests officially but I suspect the tests are very similar.

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

Has anyone done certification not through Seeed?

Gordon Williams says:an hour ago

I was Seeed both times - I'd be interested to hear others experience though

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

They do seeem to be the favorite.

Ben Hencke says:an hour ago

Is CE the European equivalent of the FCC?

Shulie Tornel says:an hour ago

Just tweeted out to tindie seee if anyone has experience with non-seeed

Radomir Dopieralski says:an hour ago

isn't CE a do-it-yourself thing?

todbot says:an hour ago

I've gotten quotes from Intertek US ($15k for an FCC Intentional Radiator cert for a contract non-module Bluetooth project) and TUV America ($5k for FCC Unintentional Radiator for a contract USB device)

Radomir Dopieralski says:an hour ago

in that you certify that the product fits the norms, but it's actually your responsibility to do the testing?

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

There's some quit good info about the steps for CE here: http://europa.eu/youreurope/business/product/ce-mark/index_en.htmOliver Launchbury-Clark says:an hour ago

@Ben Hencke In this instance pretty much. A CE mark means that the product complies with the relevant standards and tests for that type of of product. Low risk products you can sign off yourself. Higher risk products such as medical devices have to be inspected by an approved agency.

Dorijan says:an hour ago

@todbot how much did you pay for bluetooth licenses? Was it regular Bluetooth or BLE?

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

TI also has some info about FCC for bluetooth products - http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php/How_to_Certify_your_Bluetooth_productDirty Engineer says:an hour ago

just the symbol...?

todbot says:an hour ago

@Dorijan: I didn't personally do any of the Bluetooth licensing. It was a EE contract gig

Sophi says:an hour ago

I've done self certifying for CE

Gordon Williams says:an hour ago

I could be wrong here, but especially with the Nordic chips I thought Bluetooth certification was basically built in - hence the faff with the pre-compiled binary blob

Max Vilimpoc says:an hour ago

I think you still have to register w/the Bluetooth SIG the QDID of the module.

todbot says:an hour ago

If we're doing links, this one from SparkFun is also good wrt FCC & RF: https://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/398

Max Vilimpoc says:an hour ago

IIRC also you have to pay something like $2500 - $4k to the Bluetooth SIG, even when you're using someone's precertified module...

todbot says:an hour ago

another bookmark, about CE and is various sub-directives: https://www.emcfastpass.com/ce-mark-guide-electronics/

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

This article is a little old, but it's a good getting started guide to FCC http://embedded-computing.com/articles/new-to-wireless-understand-fcc-certification-for-iot-products/

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

Is anyone thinking about self assessment for Open Source Hardware Association Certification?

Max Vilimpoc says:an hour ago

@Sophi When you self certified for CE, what documentation did you compile?

Max Vilimpoc says:an hour ago

And did the device involve wireless?

Dorijan says:an hour ago

i have the same information. You have to buy Bluetooth Mac and it can cost up to 8000$ if you are not part of the Bluetooth alliance.

But I am curious if it is the same for BLE. because 15k$ + 8k$ is a bit much for a first product.

Professor Fartsparkles says:an hour ago

Is this Unintentional Radiator certification something you need to do everytime you have any sort of RF hardware in your product, even if its just an off the shelf wifi usb dongle?

Sophi says:an hour ago

@Max Vilimpoc, it was mostly paperwork. Listing all the parts which were already CE certified, then signing off on the equipment

Max Vilimpoc says:an hour ago

@Dorijanj Ahh the Bluetooth SIG has an intro rate of $2500 for companies w/revenue of less than $1M/year: https://www.bluetooth.com/develop-with-bluetooth/qualification-listing/qualification-listing-fees

Max Vilimpoc says:an hour ago

Also, IIRC the higher cost is if you want them to assign you well-known BLE Service UUID or Characteristic UUIDs.

Max Vilimpoc says:an hour ago

@Sophi Is there an example / template Declaration of Conformity out there somewhere?Dorijan says:an hour ago

for CE un intentional radiator with all voltages under 50V you have to provide technical folder consisting of at least: schematic, layout, BOM with declaration for every component that it complies with RoHs directive,

Sophi says:an hour ago

@Max Vilimpoc yes, we started off with a template. sec, let me see if I can find something similar

Jasmine Brackett says:43 minutes ago

You can download an example form from this link http://ec.europa.eu/DocsRoom/documents/16407/attachments/1/translations/en/renditions/native

Max Vilimpoc says:43 minutes ago

This is very useful.

Sophi says:42 minutes ago

here's another one: http://2016.export.gov/cemark/eg_main_017272.asp

Ben Hencke says:41 minutes ago

Are there exceptions for diy or hobbyist projects? I can imagine a few $k being a non starter for many hobbyist projects I'd like to sell on tindie. Where is that line where certification becomes a requirement

Dorijan says:41 minutes ago

@Professor Fartsparkles

un intentional radiator is for non RF devices. RF also has to hqve intentional radiation and power certified. and unintentional radiation is measured to a higher frequency.

Professor Fartsparkles says:41 minutes ago

oh ok

Jasmine Brackett says:40 minutes ago

Basically, you do need certification, but you can sell kits (that require soldering) with a pre-certified component.

Jasmine Brackett says:40 minutes ago

That's one reason why there are a lot of kits on Tindie.

todbot says:39 minutes ago

Can the "kit" be "put PCBA into plastic enclosure" or do you need to have it be soldered? :)

Jasmine Brackett says:38 minutes ago

You can't just leave a knob off or not put it in a case and say it's a kit. It requires assembly. If it has to be soldered, you are on the safe side of this rule.

Ben Hencke says:38 minutes ago

Jasmine, thanks that helps!

Jasmine Brackett says:37 minutes ago

Ok, any other questions or insights about FCC / CE? If not, we'll move onto Open Source Hardware Association Certification.

Max Vilimpoc says:36 minutes ago

So wait, just to be clear, if I use a precert BLE module in an end product, I still have to throw it into certification?

Max Vilimpoc says:36 minutes ago

Intentional RF certification?

Jasmine Brackett says:35 minutes ago

I think by putting it in something else, you can potentially change the properties, so it needs to be checked again.

Sophi says:35 minutes ago

yes

Jasmine Brackett says:35 minutes ago

So yes.

Max Vilimpoc says:35 minutes ago

Even if you're following the module design rules and the case is RF transparent?

Sophi says:35 minutes ago

The end product always has to be certified

Sophi says:35 minutes ago

if it is a radiator

Dirty Engineer says:34 minutes ago

there's a good book on tindie that details getting a product certified.

Dirty Engineer says:34 minutes ago

or there was....

Jasmine Brackett says:34 minutes ago

:) https://www.tindie.com/stores/emcfastpass/

Gordon Williams says:34 minutes ago

Just IMO, but with CE you can self-certify? So if your module is certified and you're confident that you aren't doing anything to mess it up, it could be fine to certify it yourself

Gordon Williams says:33 minutes ago

(for CE)

Jasmine Brackett says:33 minutes ago

Sorry I didn't get Andy on this chat.

Sophi says:32 minutes ago

I think you can self-certify for most parts of CE

Sophi says:31 minutes ago

but I believe there are additional requirements for noise and radiators

Gordon Williams says:31 minutes ago

Ahh, could be :(

Sophi says:31 minutes ago

here's some info about noise: http://www.conformance.co.uk/adirectives/doku.php?id=noise

Max Vilimpoc says:30 minutes ago

Is there anyone here who has used a precert module and gone through the process of putting it on the market?

Professor Fartsparkles says:30 minutes ago

what if I sell to just on entity, e.g. have a contract with them to do specific piece of electronics for them and dont sell to the public, does that make any difference? Does customer then have to certify the product if they want to use it for themself?

Jasmine Brackett says:28 minutes ago

You can develop your own items and there is a little leeway for demo items or prototypes. I think it's 1-5 units

Professor Fartsparkles says:27 minutes ago

for the US or EU or both?

Jasmine Brackett says:27 minutes ago

FCC.

Jasmine Brackett says:26 minutes ago

Also, if they contract you to make something for them, then you can use what you want. It's only if you're going to replicate and sell.

Jasmine Brackett says:25 minutes ago

that you need to make sure it's certified.

Jasmine Brackett says:25 minutes ago

Ok. 5 mins left. :)

Jasmine Brackett says:25 minutes ago

How many of you have Open Source Hardware products, and who is thinking about it but not taken the plunge?

todbot says:25 minutes ago

blink(1) IS OSHW certified

Jasmine Brackett says:25 minutes ago

For certification

Jasmine Brackett says:24 minutes ago

I heard it's one of the first pieces of hardware to be part of the OSHWA Open Source Hardware Certification program.

todbot says:24 minutes ago

yup

Jasmine Brackett says:24 minutes ago

Well done!

todbot says:24 minutes ago

haha, thanks

Jasmine Brackett says:24 minutes ago

Was it an easy process?

Sophi says:24 minutes ago

congrats @todbot!

Jasmine Brackett says:24 minutes ago

to get certified?

Professor Fartsparkles says:23 minutes ago

I'm thinking about doing an oshw product from time to time, at some point I'll just do something an see how it goes. As long as I don't have to certify the entry costs are luckily very low

todbot says:22 minutes ago

yes, it's really a self-certification process, mostly to let others know that you value open source. the OSHWA org is not an enforcement agency. They do look over your submission to see if you've made as much of your design open as possible and use compatible licenses.

Jasmine Brackett says:21 minutes ago

Registration is free, so it's low.

Gordon Williams says:21 minutes ago

Personally I'm not sure how I feel about the OSHW certification yet so I'm holding off on it. Last thing I need is more paperwork :)

todbot says:20 minutes ago

basically if you have a github of your firmware source, schematics in readable form, and similar source material, you can get OSHW certified pretty easily. If you want to keep proprietary stuff, then you'll have a harder time

Jasmine Brackett says:19 minutes ago

@Gordon, your puck.js is open source and hardware, isn't it?

Gordon Williams says:19 minutes ago

Yes, totally. All on GitHub

Jasmine Brackett says:18 minutes ago

Very nice!

Jasmine Brackett says:18 minutes ago

Alright. I think it's about time to wrap up.

todbot says:18 minutes ago

it sounds like then if you want to fill out the form here (more paperwork!): http://certificate.oshwa.org/get-certified/ you could get one of your projects certified

Philip says:17 minutes ago

I sell two products on Tindie that are open source, and considered OSHW cert the day it came out. After reading through all the legal stuff, I couldn't see the point.

Gordon Williams says:17 minutes ago

I just feel a bit iffy about having to register with a central authority - seems kind of against my view of OSHW being a nice, free, decentralised kind of thing. I'm not against it, I'm just not in a massive rush to do it :)

Sophi says:17 minutes ago

hi Philip!

Philip says:17 minutes ago

Hi Sophi !!

todbot says:16 minutes ago

The point is to let other people know you are OSHW. At least that's my read on it. The open gear logo has been bastardized by non-open companies. By having a minimum of oversight, the OSHW logo becomes a useful mark to customers who want to support open hardware

Jasmine Brackett says:16 minutes ago

I think a lot of it is about showing your support for open hardware and also making it easy for other people who want to buy open hardware to find you.

Jasmine Brackett says:12 minutes ago

Thanks again everyone for taking part. You're free to hang out here and carry on chatting. Or going over to http://certificate.oshwa.org/ and registering your product. :)

Jasmine Brackett says:12 minutes ago

If you have any other tips or recommended companies for certification, please let us know.

Philip says:12 minutes ago

My issue was the need to sign a legal document that included penalties on me if someone felt I was not living up to their standards. In return I get a sticker. I couldn't sign something like that without getting a lawyer to review it, and that is $$$. Since I've been selling my open source products on Tindie for a little over a year, I have not had a single complaint or request with regard to my "open-ness", so I don't see how OSHW cert is going to find me more customers, or change my fully open approach to date. vs lawyer fees.

todbot says:11 minutes ago

yes, that is a problem and I think the OSHW people are trying to figure how to do create a logomark that has some sort of strength behind it while not being a burden to those want to use it ethically

Professor Fartsparkles says:9 minutes ago

from what I can read it seems that if you are doing something they dont like, all you have to do is to remove the logo again from your product if you want to avoid any sort of trouble in the first place

Professor Fartsparkles says:9 minutes ago

doesnt sound very threatning

Sophi says:9 minutes ago

thank you @Jasmine Brackett, lots of great info here

Philip says:9 minutes ago

It is if it is in the silk-screen of 300 PCBs

Professor Fartsparkles says:8 minutes ago

I doubt they force you to do it retroactively

Professor Fartsparkles says:7 minutes ago

I just sounds like they want to avoid shady kickstarter from slapping the logo on their closed souce product that allows you to run arduino code on it

todbot says:5 minutes ago

Exactly. They're trying to solve the problem of "how can users identify products believe in open hardware"? We as engineers can dive into the engineering docs and see that, oh no wait, these aren't all the schematics and there's no firmware source here, just object files. But not everyone is that saavy. How do you help those people?

Jasmine Brackett says:3 minutes ago

Looking at the certification website, you get notified twice of infringement and then after 120 days they will put you on the naughty list on the site. They only seek punitive amounts after 6 months and in that time you can stop using the mark and they will leave you alone

Jasmine Brackett says:3 minutes ago

More info here: http://certificate.oshwa.org/

Philip says:2 minutes ago

I don't have a solution to that problem, On the other hand, if you aren't savy enough to tell it isn't open enough, are you savy enough to do anything with open sources :-)

Jasmine Brackett says:a few seconds ago

Food for thought. I have to run. Hope you all have a great week.

Jasmine Brackett says:a few seconds ago

Catch you next month. Topic tbc - let me know if you have suggestions.

Jasmine Brackett says:a few seconds ago

Bye bye

Next #TindieChat is about Certifications - FCC, OSH, CE, and more.

If you've had experience or are an expert, let us know!

Adrian Studer says:an hour ago

I have a marketing question for Tindie

Sophi Kravitz says:an hour ago

shoot

David says:an hour ago

i have a few ;)

Adrian Studer says:an hour ago

What do you see in your stats as the biggest external driver of traffic?

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

SEO

Adrian Studer says:an hour ago

I.e. Google search?

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

Organic search at the moment

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

That's why it's really important to have a good title and description

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

This is for Tindie as a whole

David says:an hour ago

I have a question about liability. I have a nice little device, but it uses heating element and another uses high voltages. How do I protect myself it such a device causes a fire?

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

We have a massive long tail for search.

spencer says:an hour ago

A 'good description' will also include all the buzwords around your product that might not be exactly your product, but will get people in.

Adrian Studer says:an hour ago

Too bad we can't see the Google search terms in Analytics. At least I can't.

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

However, for specific products, generally the biggest continuous drivers tend to vary

Sophi Kravitz says:an hour ago

GA stopped letting people see that in free version

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

Some people have sites with great docmentation and links to tindie

Adrian Studer says:an hour ago

In my experience, other people writing about your project, e.g. in forums, is great for direct traffic as well as Google ranking.

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

Some people don't have sites at all, but have facebook pages, or youtube channels that they post product or project videos to and link to tindie

spencer says:an hour ago

My Google Analytics (free version) has a load of info about the traffic that hits my Tindie pages

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

Forums is another great one. Either you need to take part, or your products need to impress knowledgable (and chatty) people

Sophi Kravitz says:an hour ago

I was wrong, here's an article about how to see search terms in Google Analytics: http://www.boostsuite.com/seo-and-marketing-tips/use-google-analytics-to-find-your-best-keywords/

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

You can add your own google analytics ID to your Tindie store from your store settings page

Adrian Studer says:an hour ago

I run Google Analytics. Very helpful. But keywords are missing except if you run your Adwords ads

mclien says:an hour ago

So having a facebook page and no own website works better for marketing as the other way around?

Sophi Kravitz says:an hour ago

David :: ultimately you are responsible

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

It really depends

spencer says:an hour ago

@mclien I don't have a facebook page, but my product has it's own website. A lot of my Tindie hits come from my website. ymmv

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

@mclien

David says:an hour ago

do we need to have any certification for products we sell?

Sophi Kravitz says:an hour ago

no, not at a hobby level

anfractuosity says:an hour ago

i was wondering that to, if you need to CE test

anfractuosity says:an hour ago

ah cool

Sophi Kravitz says:an hour ago

we hope to offer certification testing for "maker pricing" later in the year. No promises!

David says:an hour ago

cool. do you know what the limits to 'hobby' level are?

Sophi Kravitz says:an hour ago

*with

Sophi Kravitz says:an hour ago

5 pieces

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

I think we're going to do a separate chat on certification and FCC etc

David says:an hour ago

5 total? ever?

mclien says:an hour ago

@spencer how do you get the information spread. As how do you customers get notice of you?

Sophi Kravitz says:an hour ago

not sure, will get back to you on this David

mclien says:an hour ago

As for certification: Might that vary from country to country?

Sophi Kravitz says:an hour ago

David want to discuss your USB toy with the group?

spencer says:an hour ago

I use Twitter a lot. Often my customers tweet about the exciting new thing they just got, so I retweet. They often blog too and that helps. And I also use Google Adwords, but that goes direct to Tindie not my site

Sophi Kravitz says:an hour ago

@mclien we'll do a separate FCC chat where you guys can ask the qs beforehand so we can have some time to fish out the answers

Benchoff says:an hour ago

@mclien not as much as you would think...

David says:an hour ago

sure, im looking for feedback an an idea (whether its worth pursuing)

spencer says:an hour ago

Shut up and take my money!

spencer says:an hour ago

(sorry... too soon!)

Sophi Kravitz says:an hour ago

HAHAHA

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

Ok, we will do another chat about certification. Please note that sellers are responsible for finding out and ensuring that they work within their local laws. This regard to taxes as well.

mclien says:an hour ago

@Sophi Kravitz

Sophi Kravitz says:an hour ago

:D

David says:an hour ago

I have made myself a cool desktop toy. Its a super-geeky USB powered, optical time-of-flight Theramin using a plasma speaker.

mclien says:an hour ago

FCC chat at a later time then?

Sophi Kravitz says:an hour ago

@mclien yup

anfractuosity says:an hour ago

Have you got any vids of it? it sounds cool!

mclien says:an hour ago

@David lout dangerous and with light? COOL

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

Yes, there are a few sellers who have gone through it and we'll make sure they are on the chat

David says:an hour ago

no videos yet, maybe i can make one this weekend.

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

Videos! they do seem to help with sales.

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

Especially how to's or if your product can be used to control something

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

and then your video links back to your Tindie page

Sophi Kravitz says:an hour ago

people click on videos especially in our newsletters

spencer says:an hour ago

Are you looking to manufacture it? Or sell as a kit?

David says:an hour ago

its tiny too, would fit in 5x5x5cm. i can program it to store a few songs too, startrek there, imperial march etc. But its only at breadboard prototype stage. fully working though

anfractuosity says:an hour ago

maybe it could connect to your pc as a sound device too?

spencer says:an hour ago

Have you seen Dave Jones video about pricing? Multiply your BOM by at least 2.5 for sale price. Will it sell for that cost? And will you make enough to be worth your while?

David says:an hour ago

I'm not sure if i do it at all, as a kit or whatever. does anyone think its worth pursuing?

mclien says:an hour ago

General Question to the stuff on tindie: I have the idea of serveral different "geek toy" stuff which is "working as it is", but should be open to invide people to do more with it. Are those typical tindi customers?

Sophi Kravitz says:an hour ago

you mean like you are offering it open source and you are wanting to build a community around the product?

spencer says:an hour ago

Yes, sounds like it's worth pursuing. It's got lots of cool words in it at least! Mmmm... plasma...

David says:an hour ago

hmmm, that would make it about 50 bucks or so

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

@Spencer this one?

spencer says:an hour ago

That's the one. Well worth a view for anybody that hasn't seen it.

David says:an hour ago

I guess it depends on what kind of sales figures tindie sellers are hitting

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

I think people would go wild for an 'optical time-of-flight Theramin using a plasma speaker', but you do need a catchy name :)

mclien says:an hour ago

@David As non native I havend fully grasp what you do withit playing sound and makelight effects along?

Youlian Troyanov says:an hour ago

jasmine, that's great

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

@David What amounts do you need to make it viable?

mclien says:an hour ago

@Sophi more like it should have the potential and let see if it would

spencer says:an hour ago

@david $50 would probably put me off of a novelty thing personally. But I'm sure some people would pay that without batting an eyelid

David says:an hour ago

mclien: no, the plasma spark-gap makes the music

Nick Sayer says:an hour ago

Hi everyone. :)

anfractuosity says:an hour ago

David, are you using something like the VL6180 for ToF measurement?

spencer says:an hour ago

Hi Doctor Nick!

Tindie says:an hour ago

Hi @Nick Sayer

David says:an hour ago

anfractuosity: yep, its the only cheap enough ToF device available

mclien says:an hour ago

@David Oh, like the Tesla coil piano on the CCC Camp: very cool. But there must be some protection around it, right?

anfractuosity says:an hour ago

David, ah neat

David says:an hour ago

mclien: i try not to touch the plasma.

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

Wow - plasma spark gap music

Arsenijs says:an hour ago

"try"

Arsenijs says:an hour ago

=D

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

phase2682 says:an hour ago

Is Tindie worthwhile to do to make money? or mainly just to pay for a hobby?

Nick Sayer says:an hour ago

Anyone else going to MFBA this year? Don't forget the application deadline... 2/12 IIRC.

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

People seem to be quite happy to pay $40 for a one digit lixie - https://www.tindie.com/products/connornishijima/lixie-an-led-alternative-to-the-nixie-tube/

David says:an hour ago

@Jasmine Brackett I would have to make enough money that me wife would accept me using up a half dozen weekends!

mclien says:an hour ago

David: I guess, when selling there should be some kind of protection as part of the design

David says:an hour ago

do people selling telsa coils and jacobs ladder need to supply protection?

Nick Sayer says:an hour ago

@phase2682 - In principle, you could just do Tindie full time, but it'll wind up being a job.

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

@phase2682, it's one of those things where you tend to get out what you put in. Unless you can just do the design and outsource manufacture and shipping

Nick Sayer says:an hour ago

I think it'll be a nice retirement thing for me when the time comes. Meanwhile, it's a hobby.

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

Tindie will be at Maker Faire Bay Area.

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

Along with Hackaday

Rob Burling says:an hour ago

Hi everyone. I have a question about logistics... does everyone ship from their homes, or does anyone use a service?

mclien says:an hour ago

@David Could be that depends more on your wife, than on the money you make ;-)

Sophi Kravitz says:an hour ago

:)

Adrian Studer says:an hour ago

@David a few weekends and half of the 2nd bedroom

Nick Sayer says:an hour ago

Rob - I ship from home, but I use Endicia for postage.

spencer says:an hour ago

@david I have a friend that does a lot of Tesla Coil stuff and knows a lot more about it than me. He sells a couple of other things on Tindie already, so I'll try to make sure he pops in here next time.

Nick Sayer says:an hour ago

I think if I were going to try to make a go at Tindie as a full-time job, I'd definitely go down the logistics road - build 1000 of something, package them and use some of the Tindie service stuff to wire the logistics up automatically.

spencer says:an hour ago

@rob I make up all the kits and ship from home

David says:an hour ago

@Spencer thanks, ide be interested to find out how he does it

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

@David Some people do crowdfunding first and then sell on Tindie after

Rob Burling says:an hour ago

Thanks Nick, I'll look them up

mclien says:an hour ago

David: might depend on finished product vs. parts (as a single tesla coil)

David says:an hour ago

im worried i'll need to set up a limited business, and that will eat up any profits

Nick Sayer says:an hour ago

I've said before that it would be super-awesome-deluxe if Tindie kinda took a page from the erstwhile Hackaday store and offered logistics as a service to sellers like Amazon.

Nick Sayer says:an hour ago

Sellers would send 100 or 1000 of something to Tindie and kick back XX% of the sales price for logistics.

Nick Sayer says:an hour ago

Just a thought.

Adrian Studer says:an hour ago

Amazon doesn't do international, 75%+ of my orders are from overseas

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

@Nick Sayer, I manage the hackaday store too, and we're getting all the hardware off there and onto tindie.

David says:an hour ago

to be honest, i'd rather finish the design, and outsource to a manufacturer thought tindie biz, and then have tindie handle the logictics

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

Hackaday Store will just have hackaday swag.

Nick Sayer says:an hour ago

Yeah - I was sort of just using it as a model.

Rob Burling says:an hour ago

I agree Nick ... it's an additional complication coming from New Zealand ... so I'm trying to figure the logistics side out ...

spencer says:an hour ago

I ship everything from the UK. About half my customers are US, and it takes 2 - 5 weeks for stuff to get there. A US shipping warehouse would make life easier for me and quicker for customers there.

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

@dnhkng that would be great, but we're unable to offer that right now. Also, if we did, Tindie cut would be much more

David says:an hour ago

@Jasmine Brackett yeah, the Quirky model in Tindie would work great for me

Nick Sayer says:an hour ago

International logistics is a big challenge. For me, I ship US for free and basically take an equivalent loss on international shipping, but the international shipping cost I must pass on still represents a barrier for some of my less expensive products.

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

Ok, so it sounds like we should also do another tindie chat about shipping.

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

Logistics and insurance

mclien says:an hour ago

@Jasmine Brackett HHow is the balance between US and internatinal sellers

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

Sellers or Buyers?

Rob Burling says:an hour ago

@spencer do you think that limits your sales or upsets your customers?

Nick Sayer says:an hour ago

I absolutely agree that a logistics service for Tindie would take a large(r) cut of the retail price.

spencer says:an hour ago

@nick There have been a couple of your products that I've *almost* bought in the past, but shipping cost to the UK have put me off

Nick Sayer says:an hour ago

Oh... there is something I wanted to pass on that I discovered the other day, but I'm not sure it's my fault or Tindie's...

Nick Sayer says:an hour ago

It's with the "TSV" order dump.

David says:an hour ago

@Nick Sayer and I would pay it! I rather design stuff than organise logistics and manufacturing

Nick Sayer says:an hour ago

Some of the lines in that dump seem to wrap in the middle inappropriately.

Adrian Studer says:an hour ago

@spencer what's you "put off" limit?

Nick Sayer says:an hour ago

It makes it hard(er) to mine it for data.

spencer says:an hour ago

@rob I'm not sure if it limits sales (I keep shipping costs as low as I can), but I often get emails asking where there goods are after about 3 weeks.

mclien says:an hour ago

For the international selling: with open hardware it might be an idea to join with others so that we produce eah others hardware locally and sell it locally.

Jasmine Brackett says:an hour ago

We definitely have a lot more US sellers generally, but out of our top 20 sellers they are distributed with half in US, 3 in UK, 1 in France, 2 Australia, and some other places.

Nick Sayer says:an hour ago

spencer: It *definitely* helps to have tracking. Endicia does that for me.

Jasmine Brackett says:44 minutes ago

Send me details @Nick

Nick Sayer says:44 minutes ago

Not all countries track equally well through USPS, but you can often put a US tracking number in the destination country's postal service tracking gizmo and get an answer.

Nick Sayer says:43 minutes ago

Jasmine: of the TSV issue?

spencer says:43 minutes ago

@adrian If it's small and cheap then I don't want to pay twice that cost again for shipping. It's on a case by case basis though, obviously. Desire can overcome

David says:43 minutes ago

@Jasmine Brackett should I make a kit (through-hole parts), or get boards manufactured with smd? what sells better? Or are çomplete 'products'with a case the best sellers?

mclien says:43 minutes ago

(sorry have horrible lag from time to time here)

Nick Sayer says:43 minutes ago

SMDSMDSMDSMDSMD

Sophi Kravitz says:43 minutes ago

refresh to kill lag

Youlian Troyanov says:43 minutes ago

i would like a kit

Nick Sayer says:43 minutes ago

I do really well with "quick kits" - SMD boards with the through-hole parts left off.

spencer says:43 minutes ago

Through Hole! :-)

Nick Sayer says:42 minutes ago

I stole that nomenclature from Chris Howell of the OpenEVSE project/store.

Jasmine Brackett says:42 minutes ago

If you can make a kit that is not too hard or hackable, then that appeals to a certain market.

Jasmine Brackett says:42 minutes ago

Complete products work for a different set of buyers

Nick Sayer says:42 minutes ago

SMD was invented as a way to decrease the tedium (and therefore cost) of assembly.

Adrian Studer says:41 minutes ago

Not exactly a kit, but the RPi HAT variant of my product sells a lot fewer units than the plug & play USB version. Except for Germany for some odd reason.

Nick Sayer says:41 minutes ago

One thing I don't do a good job of is pricing kit vs assembled. I wind up taking a huge loss if you correctly price my time.

David says:41 minutes ago

but SMD it not nice to sell as a kit. even counting parts to pack in the kit would be tedious

mclien says:40 minutes ago

how much of the tindie "products" are open hardware btw

Nick Sayer says:40 minutes ago

Oh, no, never sell an SMD kit. People generally don't have the ability to deal with that.

Nick Sayer says:40 minutes ago

@mclien all of mine are.

Jasmine Brackett says:40 minutes ago

a complete desktop toy that's finished and presented nicely and can be plugged straight in to music will work as a gift or 'must have' for more people

spencer says:39 minutes ago

The variety of customers on Tindie is as varied as the products. Some would only suit being complete cased units. Others partial assembly. Others are sold to people that love to solder and hack about with things.

Nick Sayer says:39 minutes ago

But the "quick kit" is good for everyone. There's a lot less for the end user to have to assemble, and the designer isn't hobbled by through-hole parts availability and sizes.

David says:39 minutes ago

true, but then I'de have to do a kickstarter. The injection molds would cost thousands, which i cant afford upfront

Jasmine Brackett says:39 minutes ago

but there is a lot more involved to a consumer level item

Nick Sayer says:39 minutes ago

Laser cut cases FTW.

mclien says:38 minutes ago

Thanks Nick, I also so was interested in the "over all balance" of tindie stuff

Nick Sayer says:38 minutes ago

Take a look at my GPS clock

Jasmine Brackett says:38 minutes ago

so kits are a good way to test out the waters.

Nick Sayer says:38 minutes ago

I have zero modeling and case design skills, but I have friends with a laser cutter.

David says:38 minutes ago

for the microcontroller, I was thinking of using the arduino nano clones. they are 'through-hole' and are so cheap...

Nick Sayer says:37 minutes ago

They designed and make the cases for my GPS clock, and I think they are a *winner* :)

Jasmine Brackett says:37 minutes ago

The majority of people currently come to tindie for boards or components for projects they are trying to make, or for kits of projects they are interested in.

Nick Sayer says:36 minutes ago

Another good idea for cases are extruded aluminum cases with board guides inside. I got one designed for a 50x80mm board and use that for my GPS Disciplined Oscillator product. That idea came from EEVBlog.

Nick Sayer says:36 minutes ago

And you can make front and rear panels for those kind of cases with PCB fab. OSHPark boards make *really pretty* front/rear panels.

Adrian Studer says:35 minutes ago

I second to look for existing enclosures.

Jasmine Brackett says:35 minutes ago

We are seeing more end product items being listed as well, and the people who buy those tend to want latest gadgets

Jasmine Brackett says:35 minutes ago

or tools for making

mclien says:35 minutes ago

BTW: Is anybody here making aliving of selling on tindie (since that kinda was the greater topic) [Jasmine excluded ;-)]

spencer says:35 minutes ago

I bought a Muffsy Phono Preamp kit https://www.tindie.com/products/skrodahl/muffsy-phono-preamp-kit/ and that suggests which extruded aluminium case to use. That approach works really well for that kit

David says:34 minutes ago

adrian and nice: can you link to your products?

spencer says:34 minutes ago

@mclien Yes :D

Nick Sayer says:34 minutes ago

http://store.geppettoelectronics.com/

Jasmine Brackett says:38 minutes ago

If you don't know me, I'm Jasmine. I used to be the Hackaday.io Community manager, but for the last 9 months I've had the pleasure of working on Tindie.

Yay Tindie!

Dirty Engineer says:40 minutes ago

So who here has actually quit their day job to sell product on Tindie?

spencer says:40 minutes ago

Me :-)

MobileWill says:40 minutes ago

I wish I could.

Gordon Williams says:40 minutes ago

Me - ish.

spencer says:40 minutes ago

Well, I sold stuff on Tindie then quit my job so I could do it properly.

Jasmine Brackett says:40 minutes ago

First question from DirtyEngineer :)

Evan Salazar says:40 minutes ago

I did, but I have to do a lot of other consulting to get by

MobileWill says:38 minutes ago

Does anyone sell on multiple sites like Amazon etc along side Tindie?

Jasmine Brackett says:38 minutes ago

So those of you who haven't, is it because you're not selling enough volume on Tindie or because production is time consuming?

Dirty Engineer says:38 minutes ago

@spencer what product do you sell?

@Kuldeep Singh Dhaka I know this tool, but i don;t like it. What I want is something integrated in kicad. Moreover not only a wizard for building footprints/symbols/3d but also a library managment tool. I will update my question in the sheet with more details.

MobileWill says:38 minutes ago

For me its not enough volume, sells dropped in the last year or so compared to what I used to sell

spencer says:38 minutes ago

RC2014 (Z80 based retro computer kit)

37 minutes ago

@MobileWill what changed about how you were selling it?

anfractuosity says:37 minutes ago

i just saw someone mention that on HN recently, spencer, it sounds v. interesting

MobileWill says:37 minutes ago

I think I need new product dev. Also now you can get those cheap chinese usb meters, which I want to take credit for starting ;)

Jasmine Brackett says:36 minutes ago

@MobileWill, I'll take a look as overall traffic to the site has ramped up.

Gordon Williams says:36 minutes ago

I effectively quit doing consulting before because of a KickStarter, but have managed to keep going because of Tindie (and other distributor) sales of my stuff. Sadly Tindie alone doesn't bring in enough

MobileWill says:36 minutes ago

Also there is still a lot of people that don't know about it

36 minutes ago

@MobileWill what's stopping you from new product dev? Also, we're going to be working on getting the word out in 2017!

MobileWill says:36 minutes ago

I have been working on new designs but its slow going as I have to learn a lot as I go.

Dirty Engineer says:36 minutes ago

@spencer aww yess, of all the Tindie sellers you would have been my only guess of someone full time. And maybe that guy that sells the ultrasonic record cleaners

MobileWill says:35 minutes ago

I wish I could get help in design reviews and input but that doesn't come free.

Jasmine Brackett says:35 minutes ago

@Gordon, doesn't Adafruit and Seeed also distribute your items?

spencer says:35 minutes ago

@mobilewill Are you making products that *you* want, or products that you think other people want?

MobileWill says:34 minutes ago

Its stuff I want. I am working on a USB Multimeter and a pro model

Bhavesh Kakwani says:34 minutes ago

@spencer good question, can I also know your answer?

Philip says:34 minutes ago

@MobileWill I would be glad to do design reviews with you for free (or maybe a lunch)

MobileWill says:34 minutes ago

There is road blocks I hit because of my knowledge limits

Gordon Williams says:33 minutes ago

@Jasmine Brackett yes, they do - so that all helps too - but it's amazing how much you need even to pay yourself a minimal salary

spencer says:33 minutes ago

I only make things for me. I'm always flattered when other people want them too!

Gordon Williams says:33 minutes ago

Or maybe I'm just not marking my products up enough :)

32 minutes ago

@Gordon Williams how many different items do you sell?

spencer says:32 minutes ago

If you're making products that people want, you don't hav to sell them cheap ;-)

Jasmine Brackett says:32 minutes ago

Ok, it looks like we jumped right in there. Just to check, is there anyone here that doesn't know much about TIndie.com?

Joshua Shank says:31 minutes ago

If you're just getting into it, is kickstarter a good place to initialize the capital to sustain oneself on tindie/amazon?

31 minutes ago

you should sell them at a price that you can make money at. I spoke to someone yesterday who sells on Amazon and he said that Amazon takes nearly 50% of the gross

Gordon Williams says:31 minutes ago

Types of items, or actual items? I sell 4 different Espruino devices - it fluctuates a lot so I don't have up to date figures, but I'd say I've sold around 20,000 devices to date

Dirty Engineer says:31 minutes ago

@spencer probably because items you make are not available elsewhere. You do see a lot of product on Tindie that is just an expensive respin of product available elsewhere.

MobileWill says:31 minutes ago

@philip lets talk offline later

30 minutes ago

@Gordon Williams WOW. That's a lot. 20k devices!

Jasmine Brackett says:30 minutes ago

Also, there are more hurdles and packaging issues for stocking in Amazon.

Gordon Williams says:30 minutes ago

@spencer - we're on Hackaday - someone's going to complain that it's too expensive, even if others think it's fine :)

Evan Salazar says:30 minutes ago

Markup is tough as the parts are labor for almost any board seem to make the board too expensive to sell

Joshua Shank says:29 minutes ago

@Jasmine Brackett how does tindie compare in that respect that sophie mentioned? Whats the average percentage that tindie maintains off gross product sales?

Anool Mahidharia says:29 minutes ago

a lot of the young kids I refer Tindie to correct me by saying I meant Tinder. True story.

MobileWill says:29 minutes ago

I think people realize we are little guys and its worth paying a premium for products

28 minutes ago

@Evan Salazar can you do a high level example? I think if people think that the product is something they can;'t get elsewhere, they will pay a premium

Adam Vadala-Roth says:28 minutes ago

bingo mobilewill!

Gordon Williams says:28 minutes ago

Yes, markup is difficult - I do an insane amount of support for Espruino - both software and answers on the forum - so I spend a lot of my time on that

Kuldeep Singh Dhaka says:28 minutes ago

Anool lol :p

28 minutes ago

Has anyone experimented with doubling their prices?

Benchoff says:28 minutes ago

> a lot of the young kids I refer Tindie to correct me by saying I meant Tinder.

28 minutes ago

@Gordon Williams: chatbot

MobileWill says:28 minutes ago

Another thing is good documentation, which can be hard. I use wordpress site for that

Philip says:28 minutes ago

@gordon I got toasted on Hackaday a few weeks ago when someone did a nice writeup on one of my products.

Jasmine Brackett says:27 minutes ago

Tindie's cut is 5% of the total price (product price + shipping costs), plus there is a ~3% for payment processing which is charged by Paypal/Stripe.com

Gordon Williams says:27 minutes ago

@Anool Mahidharia maybe Tindie should add a mobile swipe-based website, just to confuse things a bit

Anool Mahidharia says:27 minutes ago

Swiping could work !

Jasmine Brackett says:26 minutes ago

I live in LA - the Tindie/Tinder things is a common mistake

MobileWill says:26 minutes ago

Yeah because for in person tranactions I have use paypal here

Joshua Shank says:26 minutes ago

thats awesome in comparison to amazon

Evan Salazar says:26 minutes ago

I designed the Power DAC Shield. by the time I get all the parts from digikey, PCB from China, hours SMD soldering it already close to $20 and I dont think I can sell it for much more and most people done pay more than $40 for a shield

spencer says:26 minutes ago

The Tindie fees are much lower than eBay or Amazon. The barrier to entry is much lower with Tindie than Amazon

Kuldeep Singh Dhaka says:26 minutes ago

Sophie doubling you mean manuf_pricex2 or (manuf_price+profit)x2 or what?

Jasmine Brackett says:25 minutes ago

Tindie and the community do expect high quality product support and customer service.

MobileWill says:25 minutes ago

For larger volume I don't solder at home anymore.

25 minutes ago

I mean doubling the visible price to the consumer

25 minutes ago

or doing 1.5x, finding the spot where you make a profit

MobileWill says:25 minutes ago

Daves jones's video recomends 2.5x rule of thumb

Joshua Shank says:25 minutes ago

do you have multiple products or so much volume that it made at home work difficult?

spencer says:24 minutes ago

I started with quite a high markup, and figured I could always lower it later if needed. Haven't needed to yet.

MobileWill says:24 minutes ago

I do have multiple products but the ones that I need 100+ I use seeedstudio

Philip says:24 minutes ago

For realistic pricing, this is a great talk by eevblog:

MobileWill says:24 minutes ago

easier to lower than raise the price

Bhavesh Kakwani says:24 minutes ago

@MobileWill will seeed studio assemble it for you?

Gordon Williams says:24 minutes ago

@MobileWill is that the one-off price? Distributors demand a big cut

Actually that's one of the nicer things of going through Tindie

MobileWill says:24 minutes ago

to be honest starting a higher price is why i am still able to operate

MobileWill says:23 minutes ago

that video linked is the one

Jasmine Brackett says:23 minutes ago

I would recommend @Spencer's model. As it means he can deal very quickly with cs issues.

MobileWill says:23 minutes ago

Seeedstudio will do everthing

MobileWill says:23 minutes ago

I love them

MobileWill says:23 minutes ago

My black usb testers are made by them

Gordon Williams says:23 minutes ago

It's worth noting that if you get it made somewhere like Seeedstudio you're going to have to buy quite a few to make it worthwhile, so you'll end up with a lot of stock

Joshua Shank says:22 minutes ago

do you just send them the schematic and BOM then they mail them to you?

MobileWill says:22 minutes ago

Not really. You can do 50 or 100 no problem

spencer says:22 minutes ago

Also, I was doing very low volume to start, so I based my price on buying small qty of components. Now I'm selling more, I buy in bulk for higher profit :-)

MobileWill says:22 minutes ago

You send the gerbers and bom and any comments needed

Gordon Williams says:22 minutes ago

But totally, +1 for Seeed - I get everything made there now - especially since getting burned by a ritish CM

Jasmine Brackett says:22 minutes ago

@Gordon, I noticed your bulk pricing on Tindie and realised how much Adafruit must be buying them in for .

Anool Mahidharia says:22 minutes ago

I'm able to get seeed to build 5-10 samples for me. They just charge me an extra setup fee

MobileWill says:22 minutes ago

Seeed isn't going to rip off your design either

MobileWill says:21 minutes ago

seeed can even make stuff in the US for small prototypes

Evan Salazar says:20 minutes ago

@MobileWill Do you use seeeds parts only or do you have them source parts for you

spencer says:20 minutes ago

The last couple of PCB orders I put in with Seeed were very slow and quite poor quality compared to places like DirtyPCB :-/

Philip says:20 minutes ago

I'm in Silicon Valley and I use local PCB and assembly companies. This makes resolving issues easier. The obvious trade off is price, but surprisingly not as much as you would think.

LazyHD says:20 minutes ago

If i am not mistaken, seeed does manual hand soldering for small quantities

Joshua Shank says:19 minutes ago

MobileWill, is this your profession now? hardware dev/engineering?

MobileWill says:19 minutes ago

I send them part numbers from digikey but they also have their in house stock parts they cna use

MobileWill says:19 minutes ago

I wish it was my profession. I do IT by day.

MobileWill says:18 minutes ago

I am a self taught engineer.

Anool Mahidharia says:18 minutes ago

For small batches, another great option is people like Bob Coggeshall who runs Small Batch Assembly

Evan Salazar says:18 minutes ago

So how much marketing do you do?

spencer says:17 minutes ago

I was a network engineer for 15 yearsuntil I did this for a living

MobileWill says:17 minutes ago

Bob is a great buy but I could work out the cost.

lukasz.iwaszkiewicz says:17 minutes ago

Hi, I also wanted to know about marketing.

MobileWill says:17 minutes ago

To start out I have a converted toaster oven at home and use stencils to make it faster

17 minutes ago

hey if people are having issues with lag, please refresh

Bhavesh Kakwani says:17 minutes ago

Marketing me too!

MobileWill says:17 minutes ago

I did a blog post on use the toaster oven

lukasz.iwaszkiewicz says:17 minutes ago

how and ehere to spread the word about youyr product

Gordon Williams says:16 minutes ago

It was only one experience, but I'd be very wary of bigger CMs now. I did the 4k Espruino Picos in England, and I was very obviously very low priority - wasn't fun at all

MobileWill says:16 minutes ago

I don't really do any marketing

Shulie Tornel says:16 minutes ago

In terms of Tindie, we do email newsletters and do loads of social media push. Through Tindie, Hackaday and Hackaday.io.

MobileWill says:16 minutes ago

I think my blog helps

Jasmine Brackett says:16 minutes ago

So, I can see that Spencer sends a lot of traffic to his page. He has a really good website for his products and only sells on Tindie.

MobileWill says:16 minutes ago

Twitter helps too

Joshua Shank says:16 minutes ago

is small batch based out of Reston, VA?

lukasz.iwaszkiewicz says:16 minutes ago

And how many visitors/subscribers do you have (approx)

spencer says:15 minutes ago

The "I sell on Tindie" badges on my website seem to work well

Anool Mahidharia says:15 minutes ago

Small Batch Assembly runs out of NoVa LAbs in Reston

Joshua Shank says:15 minutes ago

Sweet!

Evan Salazar says:15 minutes ago

So having constant traffic from a blog and some tweeting

spencer says:15 minutes ago

I also use Google Adword Express to drive customers to Tindie website

Bhavesh Kakwani says:15 minutes ago

Yes the espruino website is incredible

MobileWill says:15 minutes ago

how is adwords working for you?

Gordon Williams says:15 minutes ago

@MobileWill I'd love to manufacture here - with the components I'm using Seeed can't get them much cheaper than me now. I know folks like Pimoroni and MeArm are 'vertically integrated' now and it seems to work great

Jasmine Brackett says:15 minutes ago

@Kris Winer is also another top seller, who just makes small boards that people want, and I think does very very little of his own marketing but other people share on social media and link to his pages.

spencer says:14 minutes ago

Pretty good I think. I vary which countries to target and there seems to be sales that reflect that.

Jasmine Brackett says:14 minutes ago

I didn't realise that you used adwords @Spencer.

Jasmine Brackett says:14 minutes ago

We'll have to talk more about that

MobileWill says:13 minutes ago

@Gordon Williams You have larger volumes so that makes sense. I almost went with a fab down the street but Seeedstudio understands our market better

MobileWill says:13 minutes ago

@Jasmine Brackett I have used it in the past but haven't used it since. I got a letter with $150 credit the other day

Anool Mahidharia says:13 minutes ago

Does Tindie send out a Newsletter weekly/monthly ?

Joshua Shank says:13 minutes ago

anyone ever done qfn flashing? currently working with a TI bluetooth qfn chip

LazyHD says:13 minutes ago

can i sell services on Tindie ? @Jasmine Brackett

Jasmine Brackett says:12 minutes ago

There is a newsletter that goes out twice a month

Gordon Williams says:12 minutes ago

It seems there's this middle-ground where you can't assemble enough yourself but it's not worth getting the kit to do bigger runs - Seeed handles that great though

Jasmine Brackett says:12 minutes ago

No services at the moment. We only allow physical items

Hmm, turned off uBlock and Ghostery and it still lags more than on an Atom netbook.

Jasmine Brackett says:11 minutes ago

Every other week

LazyHD says:11 minutes ago

when you say at the moment, does it mean there are plans for adding services in the future ?

Jasmine Brackett says:11 minutes ago

You can sign up on the home page if you want to get it

Dirty Engineer says:11 minutes ago

why is the Tindie forum so hidden away on the website?

Gordon Williams says:11 minutes ago

@Spencer did you find adwords to be worth it when you used it? My wife wants me to do it, but it looks like it'd be $0.7 a click or so, and on a $30 board I wonder if it'd be worth it

spencer says:10 minutes ago

I pay a max of 50GBP per month (normally around 40 or so), so only need a couple of decent orders to cover that cost

Michael Harris says:9 minutes ago

does AdWords allow you to cap your monthly spending?

Philip says:9 minutes ago

To help with visibility, getting interviewed on The Amp Hour, Embedded.FM, or giving a talk at one of Chris Gammel's HDDG has worked for me.

anfractuosity says:9 minutes ago

For those who use seeed, can they also do very small runs of pcb assembled boards out of interest, like 10?

anfractuosity says:9 minutes ago

For those who use seeed, can they also do very small runs of pcb assembled boards out of interest, like 10?

spencer says:9 minutes ago

Yes, you can set a maximum monthly spend on Adwords

MobileWill says:9 minutes ago

Or get your product posted on hacakday, that helped me a ton at the start

MobileWill says:9 minutes ago

@anfractuosityYes!

anfractuosity says:8 minutes ago

awesome :) i will have to investigate that

Gordon Williams says:8 minutes ago

@MobileWill - yes, me too - I've had a great response from Hackaday posts :)

MobileWill says:8 minutes ago

One think I miss from Tindie that help tremendously early on was when Tindie did mini fundraising. Some of use are not ready for full blown kickstarters

Joshua Shank says:7 minutes ago

anyone use osh park as there main board distrubutor? I've heard good things

Jasmine Brackett says:7 minutes ago

OK, I'm going to research adwords for sellers and put together some tips.

7 minutes ago

hey everyone...can we move to the Dog Park? https://hackaday.io/project/19393-tindie-dog-park

Michael Harris says:7 minutes ago

getting posted on HaD does seem good for exposure. Other than posting something up and hoping for it to get noticed organically, what are some good ways to get noticed and picked up?

MobileWill says:7 minutes ago

I use oshpark for everything

Joshua Shank says:7 minutes ago

quick turnaround?

Jasmine Brackett says:7 minutes ago

If you post a relevant project on hackaday.io and link ot your tindie page, that helps.

7 minutes ago

Moving to Dog Park since Kicad chat starting here in 20 minutes : https://hackaday.io/project/19393-tindie-dog-park

Gordon Williams says:7 minutes ago

Interestingly I managed to get on the frontpage at news.ycombinator.com once and I got a massive amount of traffic. Absolutely no orders though!

Jasmine Brackett says:6 minutes ago

also you can submit the project to the tips line and the hackaday.com writers can see it

Jasmine Brackett says:6 minutes ago

Before we move out. Anyone got any current discount codes? Please provide code and link to product.

MobileWill says:6 minutes ago

Also some of my blog posts get picked up by Adafruit. SOmetimes I email them with my latest project.

anfractuosity says:7 minutes ago

Gordon, your product is the Espruino?

Gordon Williams says:6 minutes ago

@anfractuosity yes, that's the one

Jasmine Brackett says:6 minutes ago

Please join the dog park for more Tindie discussion https://hackaday.io/project/19393-tindie-dog-park

Dirty Engineer says:6 minutes ago

so.. none of the questions on the Google sheet were addressed? Point of the google sheet?

Jasmine Brackett says:5 minutes ago

OK, let's go over to https://hackaday.io/project/19393-tindie-dog-park and I we can go through them. :)

Dirty Engineer says:4 minutes ago

why didn't we just stater there..?

Jasmine Brackett says:3 minutes ago

Because it's a smaller project and we wanted to get more hackaday.io peeps involved.

Jasmine Brackett says:3 minutes ago

If you can't get in https://hackaday.io/project/19393-tindie-dog-park message me and I'll sort it out.