Lutetium-
Making in Shenzhen Hack Chat Transcript
09/02/2017 at 01:24 • 0 commentsSexyCyborg Sure! I'm Naomi Wu. DIY and amateur hardware person in Shenzhen china. So not a hardware professional. As I just said on Hackaday, a New Yorker could tell you how to buy a bagel, I can tell you how to buy a PCB, normal local knowledge not professional
Camilo Buscaron professionals are overrated! :-)
sfrias1 :-)
Sophi Kravitz We have a question about buying parts from Nikolaus: "What's a good way to get parts from directly from Manufacturers on Alibaba as a Maker / Hobbyist / Startup? I try to use aliexpress where ever I can but for some things there is simply no way to get parts anywhere else.
SexyCyborg Fake website
SexyCyborg Build a detailed website for a fake company that seems like it would be a good customer. Cheap template, little to no text in images so they can use google translate. I don't do them anymore but I got my start doing these for a flat rate.
SexyCyborg Also they are going to share your email anyway and you will get a ton of spam
SexyCyborg so might as well
Question from the sheet from @Jordan Bunker : what kinds of things are best to buy in Shenzhen?
Arsenijs Also, I have good experience with taobao forwarding agents.
Piotr Esden-Tempski Ohh so rather than directing them to your own website you would also rather recommend making a fake one as one would get tons of spam?
Arsenijs (I think Naomi mentioned this in her first post on hackaday.com blog)
SexyCyborg Or a throwaway email. But it's not hard to look like a more appealing customer so might as well. But TaoBao first of course, but not everything is there
won't it all go bad when they find out?
Josh Soucie <3 Taobao
DL101 i spent tons of money buying stuff directly from taobao, nothing ever arrived D:
Arsenijs Not everything is on TaoBao? I thought that was the place that has more stuff than Alibaba
SexyCyborg LOL we just think it's clever
SexyCyborg No, some manufacturers are afraid of local copies
Arsenijs So they don't sell directly to China? I think I saw this recently
SexyCyborg Best things to buy in Shenzhen...anything you can get in the markets you can get online, but services. Prototyping, CNC all that, fastest and most professional in Shenzhen
SexyCyborg The markets are fun for feeling switches and seeing what is new, but most young engineers just source online and get next day delivery.
Sophi Kravitz says:6:17 PM
@Arsenic asks :: How viable is it now to subcontract manual assembly assembly to a factory in China?Do you have any restrictions by being in China?
Sophi Kravitz And how do you find places to subcontract assembly to?
SexyCyborg Easy. hand work is very common still. But I can't give names. People always end up complaining to me when there are problems. this is IP- people earn a lot of money knowing how to make things in China. It's not the kind of information that's freely traded. I think a lot of Open Source Hardware is based around the idea that you without manufacturing expertise you won't be able to get it made as cheaply as the developers. People get off the plane "hey I need to hire an electrical engineer to build my idea for me" I hear this hundreds of times. does not work that way. that's why Hax, Noa labs etc have good business.
david Hard to believe some people think it does work that way.
Radomir Dopieralski we get them here regularly too
SexyCyborg DangerousPrototypes does this the smart way- just act as middle for local company. But everyone wants to cut out the middle person...
pt this is like the best #hackchat ever, thank you for doing this hackaday and @SexyCyborg
Next question is from @hello :: What is the hacker/maker culture like in Shenzhen? Why aren't we seeing more people putting out cool projects onto the internet that are just for fun?
Radomir Dopieralski of course they can't tell you what they want you to make either, because then you would steal the idea
caleb kraft hello is me
SexyCyborg Oh...I have part of an email I sent to Mike Szczys about that. It has proofread English hold on...
david @Radomir Dopieralski So freakin' true.
SexyCyborg Copy paste not writing this now. For something of a backstory. Shenzhen being the city it is, help is not something I have to worry about. When I got stuck on the hinge of the Pi Pallatte and after two weeks was on the verge of tears, the problem is not getting help, the problem is I can have five engineers from Lenovo and DJI on video chat within minutes to tell me *exactly* what to do.
This fits in the overall model of Chinese Making and hardware development, if a Western hack/makerspace is a dedicated server, the Chinese equivalent is a VPS. It's not a physical place- it's a virtual environment and framework. The physical hackspaces in China are just for show because oddly enough many of us feel the legacy Western model is more authentic than the dynamic, scalable but shapeless virtual development environments we actually use.
Early on when I started Making, after discussion with some friends I set the line at "help one could typically expect at a Western hackspace". So for the hinge instead of the finished CAD drawing they wanted to send, I got a few very rough sketches of general ways it could be done. When my Blinkini would not work and I could not figure out why I posted pictures of the perf board to Wechat and my friends pointed out a wire to one of the shift registers was missing- although in the spirit of things they did not say which one. This is within the range and spirit I'm told I could expect at NYCresister or Noisebridge.
Kenneth Freeman That sounds about right.
SexyCyborg So "making" works differently because making things is easy. In the est manufacturing is hard- so things often stop when the build is done. but here as easy to make 1000 as 10. It's hard to get people to make/hack for abstract reason when so few are creative might as well make money.
Next question: Have your personal projects benefited from being based in Shenzhen?
SexyCyborg Kind of the above LOL but as I said, tough part of being a local is often not asking for help, no getting everything printed in nylon (it's cheap) or CNC.
Making anything here is very easy
At least compared to what I hear from forigners
thanks!
next Question from @Joshua Robot Any tips on how Western engineers working with Chinese engineers can get past the usual polite deference and solve hard problems? How do I listen for "what you are asking us to do is unreasonable" and other indirect statements?
I imagine the low cost of components available in Shenzhen is offset by the cost living? Housing, food, etc.?
It's not a nice answer...But age. People who grew up 20 years ago in China are very, very different. Older, they were doing bad stuff.
// wants to know what kind of bad stuff?
80s and 90s generation have a very, very different mentality
Massive generational changes!
Killing intellectuals
@Sophi Kravitz crappy jobs?
Lying to get food
BTW: https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&range=latest-20&pages=Naomi_Wu
anything to survive
oh, that kind of bad
have to be tricky or don't eat
uchlebs?
Still hasn't been translated, alas.
Someone said they are like ex-convicts. and I don't mean to be disrspectful, but a little bit. not their fault, they grew up in hard times. So often think there is no win-win.
spitting, littering, stealing, aborting
I can see the analogy.
if they see you winning- they think they are losing
Zero-sum.
it is "agest" I know but it really is a big factor. you can see how young men behave around me in my video- they are very civilized. 40+ you have to be careful, they are used to being able to get away with anything. So with engineers, if you want a more Western mentality, it's going to be younger. I have been working with a local company, boss is 28. No problems so far. PCB Company. But yes I know it sounds very bad.
We are okay with bad- the backstory is fascinating
but younger engineers are not going to have a lot of respect at their company?
They don't plan to stay. They want to leave, so they want their own contacts. Same thing with sales.
@Radomir Dopieralski If the boss is 28 maybe they do getb respect?
Because they are the boss. not just about age. everyone wants to be the boss. have to make money, have to buy a house. Say...young western guys go to the gym a lot. Maybe a hours a week. Want to get a pretty girl. Chinese guys are the same- only no house, no girl. So just focus on that. So can seem quite materialistic.
Next question from @jlbrian7: What are working conditions like in Shenzhen?
I think good. Most factory dorms look like my school dorms but my background is not fancy. I have friends who work at Foxconn. Their issues was they put people from different provinces in the same room so of course people were miserable. But houses are really expensive which is making young people feel a bit hopeless.
Culture clash?
Yes
Are TV dramas made about this?
Different food and language also just bias. A little but it's discouraged. harmony and all that.
i have book of the iphone schematics from shenzhen and in the back there are ads for the best dorms, places for engineers to live, competition for the workers, who has the best living arrangements, etc
I'm sure there are a lot of Chinese jokes about people from different provinces meeting
SexyCyborg Yes, also food is a very big deal
like we have about Russian, Englishman and German...
If a factory or school is found out to use substandard food they might have a riot
Also if we are on chat we tend to disappear I'm told around mealtime. haha It's very important.
My daughter (3) and son (7) who were both adopted from China have different tastes, and they were only a province or two apart.
I wonder if it stems from that milk scandal in, what, 80s?
Can we talk about some of your projects?
Sure
I have heard a lot of stories, and not having seen it, it is hard to know what to believe and what to dismiss.
See "gutter oil"
Isn't Foxconn infamous for a high worker suicide rate?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides
Having just moved to China (currently Shanghai), this is fantastic
Sort of. Suicide is a major cause of death for young women in China anyway. #1 I think? Lot of stuff done with the foxconn numbers. My highschool friends liked it but hated the dorm arrangements. It is complicated since you can't have people from the same province in say security and shipping.
oh dear...just image searched gutter oil
Or accounting and logistic
Why?
one of fave' projects @SexyCyborg did was the pi palette
The bosses worry they will work together to steal (kind of true)
Yeah that is a great project! And there are a few questions on wearables - best tip?
Pi Palette does not get much attention but was my most difficult except for Blinkini I think. Skin test. whatever is going to be on skin use medical tape to put against your skin overnight to test. Sometimes PLA is not PLA...
have you had allergic reactions?
although I like coating with silicone now
No quite but quadcopter wrist mount gets itchy if I get hot so is good for only an hour or two
or they add plasticizers
which are not healthy
But my new TPU strangely comfortable so I've been using it for everthing.
ny idea what the wrist mount is made of?
It's $8USD a roll PLA so I don't want to know haha China has to import PLA I have been told. so bosses mix in whatever they can get cheaply.
from where?
@SexyCyborg I subscribe to your youtube channel, Great stuff.
Not sure? But I think it's not a domestic product, or a least not a lot
another fave project, the infinity skirt -
That was fun. Not so useable but I liked it because it was very simple just a lot of time
What do you think shall be the next big technological shift?
In China?
I can pick a question...
"What is the best way of attracting little girls towards STEM? I design and run a number of maker camps in Pakistan where both girls and boys participate, but girls are generally less in number. When they do get the hang of it, they usually outperform the boys!"
Next question is from @Jordan Bunker What would you say the average experience of a foreigner is in Shenzhen? What do most foreigner's have trouble grasping (either culturally, psychologically, ideologically, etc.)?
sorry- do the one you picked :)
Opps, hold on will answer that and then yours. Already wrote...
@Jordan Bunker I tend to have a Chinese perspective on STEM education. It's not an elective. You do your homework. Kids aren't "attracted" to all sorts of things- eating something other than sugar, bed times. For some reason girls specifically and in STEM specifically we let them opt out. I disagree with this. It's nice if STEM is fun but if I have daughters it will not be optional anymore then spelling properly and taking baths. As Bunnie said in his book "The Hardware Hacker" Hanlon's razor: "Don't assume bad intentions over neglect and misunderstanding." Most foreigners end up very angry, nearly all the time, because it really seems personal to them. The foreigners who are most successful often don't speak Chinese. But they adapt to the culture and don't expect the rules they are used to to apply.
Yes, in China particularly. What tech will change the landscape... Or BECOME the landscape?
@SexyCyborg more women being celebrated as engineers so more young girls see cool role models and imagine that they can be an engineers
@SexyCyborg Thanks!
Thanks for all of this info @SexyCyborg . :-)
"The foreigners who are most successful often don't speak Chinese. But they adapt to the culture and don't expect the rules they are used to to apply."
I used to get shit from my Chinese American gf about being a "cultural chameleon"...good to hear from you that I'll be (hopefully) successful because of it aha
limor yes. But I also meet a lot of Western women a little sad embarrassed they have trouble with tech. Or that they were not pushed harder. But Chinese perspective...
Ooops, I must run. Very interesting discussion all around. Thanks!
Next in tech for China...VR. Women being pushed to stay home. Nothing to do- lot and lots more casual gamers are female now. They will want more than simple games. Men- not enough women, will want VR.
bye @Kenneth Freeman thanks for joining
I know a dozen startups working on virtual girlfriends- one even uses my 3D scan as a placeholder (it is not setup with limbs that move so can't use it for real). But it's getting a little crazy with population issues. Lot of pressure, also a lot of government funding for VR, less for makerspaces now.
what kind of impact do you think that may have? less makerspaces, that is...
@SexyCyborg how much longer can you stay?
No impact. They are not real anyway. Many have closed
Is there a chinese designed vr rig comparable to the vive or rift here?
Maybe 15 min?
Makes sense - 1-child rule & preference for male offspring = gender disparity
@SexyCyborg I know that get a computer when me and my sister were young made a huge difference. I wasn't cool but we did't know and wouldn't have cared. Go Mac 512k
All the places I know use the Vive but I've heard about some others. I get offers from VR companies in SZ- really nice salary but mostly I would be there for decoration so...
Vive!
wait, i thought all the rage is AR now? lots of cool examples with AR kit
If the government is investing so much in VR, what do they think the primary value they will get out of it is?
Sure, I like AR to, but like all wearables- for what?
VR can make money now
cool examples don't sell headsets :)
Gaming
ios 11 launches in a couple of weeks
@business you can use it to train soldiers
Government? Hard to say, I think because they worry Western media is better at content VR is a way to catch up.
gaming, measuring, designing. ikea has a good example
99% of Chinese just want to game, VR is better, cheaper for that
+1
I live AR for what I would do- few people do that
@SexyCyborg what games are popular?
<SexyCyborg I want to read PDF or tutorial while I work at my bench...
SexyCyborg DOTA etc
SexyCyborg I don't game
Radomir Dopieralski oh, so the usual stuff, shame
Pedro Ruiz Mah yea, good point. i see it useful for designing but i don't game either
Sophi Kravitz Question about the pi palette from @Muriel Green
Sophi Kravitz What is the range on pi palette? How close do you have to be for it to work?
SexyCyborg It uses a USB wifi adapter with an antenna so probably decent? I have not done more than test it against my own router. You have to be a little careful, actual bad people use this stuff to send things.
Muriel Green <3 thanks
It's a bit like seeing everyone else at a Kali meetup is with ISIS or something...some good people doing good things use these tools in China- most also some cults like Eastern Lightning. So not really a toy and I am careful about infosec talk
Sophi Kravitz Naomi, our next question is from John: What innovations would you like to work on if you were employed at Tesla?
SexyCyborg Tuktuk
Electric tricycle
TheFirebrandForge @SexyCyborg Thank you so much for the information! As an aspiring entrepreneur in hardware, it is extremely helpful! I also wanted to take a second to share this project of mine that was inspired by your LED skirt! https://www.instagram.com/p/BYXh3BdA1YT/ I speak for myself and a number of friends when I say you're an inspiration to us!
Sophi Kravitz nnice
aloismbutura Sometimes i receive my PCBs from hong Kong as well as Shenzen. Any difference between these two ecosystems?
SexyCyborg To get from metro to home without getting rained on and wihout having to drive
Arsenijs ^
SexyCyborg The HK ones are probably made on the mainland
SexyCyborg the Shenzhen ones are probably made in Dongguan or Zhuhai
Sophi Kravitz Question from Jarrett: Are there good hackerspace or workshop options in Shenzhen?
Some places with tools but they are there for photo op. They get paid by the government to "promote innovation" once they get pictures of a foreigner using tools they don't really need you hard to get back in. None I would recomend. Better to just use a CNC place etc
that's why I want to start a Hardware Hacker BnB one day😀
Arsenijs What's the closest to a hardware hacker BnB in, say, Shenzhen?
Sophi Kravitz @SexyCyborg We are over time, are you OK to stay and answer a couple more questions?
SexyCyborg I can't really recommend anyplace.
SexyCyborg Ok couple more if you like
Radomir Dopieralski Do you have a new exciting secret project you are working on now?
limor @SexyCyborg we are you #1 fans, keep doing everything you do :) -from adafruit
SexyCyborg Yes
SexyCyborg I plan to have the first OSHWA certified project in Mainland China.
SexyCyborg But can't say what. Educational board though.
Paul Beech Naomi's House of Hardware Hacking sounds like a great idea. Would stay. A+++ :D
Looking forward to this!
Andrew L. What is needed to be certified in China as an open source hardware project?
SexyCyborg This "Maker Pro" nonsense so I have to be better than local guys at that also...
SexyCyborg Not in China
SexyCyborg new OSHWA rules, no Chinese yet
SexyCyborg just talk
Andrew L. oh, just in general!
Pedro Ruiz sounds awesome!
Andrew L. awesome!
Join the association, lots of talk- nothing certified. So if I do it first they lose face😜
SexyCyborg trying...
Sophi Kravitz Last question: What tool/technique do you use all the time that you don't see others using?
Sophi Kravitz (Naomi, you're welcome to come back anytime)
Arsenijs +1
Radomir Dopieralski won't they send assasins after you after that? ;-)
Pedro Ruiz oh, have you seen any good head mounted cams for documenting projects? (snapchat spectacle clones)
SexyCyborg Hmm...I don't think I use anything usual...I do prepare presentation in an usual way?
david The 360 cam you use is awfully cool.
SexyCyborg Since I usually wear my stuff to events to show it off, everyone wants to "stump" me
pt the little windows 10 palm top was a good purchase, thanks for showing that off, we use it for testing stuff here
SexyCyborg So I study hard, of course I know how I made it, but I have to know other ways also and why I did not do that
SexyCyborg so defense is a big part of how I prepare my projects
SexyCyborg also I don't work without a camera running anymore
Radomir Dopieralski that must be very tiring :(
SexyCyborg and I have started suggesting other women do the same
SexyCyborg make for defense, you should not have to, but eventually you will
Arsenijs Do you stream it somewhere, or do you just collect footage adn maybe make a video later?
Arsenijs Wait, defense? What?
I usually have maybe 5 hours in a build? Edit it down
Radomir Dopieralski I hope things will change soon about that
SexyCyborg save the rest
Radomir Dopieralski
@Arsenijs proving that you really made itSexyCyborg But I think it's smart for women to save proof, discrediting us is part of the game now
SexyCyborg Not enough to be real, need to be prepared
Radomir Dopieralski @Arsenijs you know, the whole "fake geek" thing
Arsenijs Oh, got it.
pt @SexyCyborg progress is slow, but it's happening, limor still gets emails from dudes saying she isn't a real engineer
Dingle perhaps those that are trying to stump you are just trying to pick your brain for ideas or engage in good tech talk
Arsenijs Yeah, was kinda weird to see it in HackerNews comments today.
Pedro Ruiz ouch :(
pt @SexyCyborg always be publishing
SexyCyborg Because my listening comprehension is bad, I can miss things I know.
pt :)
SexyCyborg Yes- I told becky button this also
SexyCyborg out work them
SexyCyborg grind them down
Matthew Edelman
I'm not a woman, but I get stared at constantly because of my dwarfirm. I always t hought it would be interesting to film people 360 discreetly and post what it's like to be oogled constantly.SexyCyborg Yes, good angle- I like the lower 360. footage. Yes, stamina. I am not so technical but I can work a long time. and I think this is a useful trait to culivate. But if I run a girls makerspace, all projects, they will be prepped to defend
pt publish, make videos, share them, never stop :)
imposter syndrome is also a thing unfortunately
Because if you just refuse and walk away they think they won, they tell everyone
a hardware kung-fu club :D
So have to stand and prove it even if it is a stupid waste of time. as a woman we did not make it unless we can prove we have.I have a camera on my head for the whole thing and still idiots on hacker news...
is it a loss of face for them to be worse or equal to a woman or something?
I have no idea, I don't do anything beyond middleschool level. Anyone can use Tinkercad
@Xark the HN news is just american teenagers, they have no face
@SexyCyborg that is super BS, sorry you are dealing with that
yeah if I wanted to fake it...oh man- the people I know😝
Yeah, that's just fucked up. =(
what's interesting to me is that @SexyCyborg is saying the same things that i've seen happen all the time, still to this day, to limor - so hey everyone - we can all work together to celebrate folks like @SexyCyborg ... this hackchat is part of that, thank you @Sophi Kravitz and hackaday for doing this
Thanks so much, @SexyCyborg — and @Sophi Kravitz for presiding. And @limor and @pt for introducing me to the work of Naomi via their show!
Thanks to you and Limor P I really appreciate it😀
Making in Shenzhen Hack Chat
Wondering what it's like to create projects in China? This week, Naomi Wu joins us to talk about making in Shenzhen!