Raspberry Pi Chat

@Patrick Van Oosterwijck unpopular

Roger Thornton You could but you'd have some big bottlenecks in terms of getting data to and from the external GPU

nightduck +1

next q from @cesar : Is there a way to use an external GPU with the Raspberry, for computational purposes?

Roger Thornton External GPUs; You could but you'd have some big bottlenecks in terms of getting data to and from the external GPU

ðeshipu we have some time dilatations again

Evan Juras+1 to @Patrick Van Oosterwijck :)

Frank Buss I wish the Raspberry Pi would have something like the BeagleBone PRUs, 200 MHz 0 latency RISC CPU for controlling the GPIOs

nightduck Those exist

ðeship why bot use BB then?

nightduck Buy a beaglebone

Thomas Shaddack 
+1 to @Frank Buss

Evan Juras 
thanks for linking that @nightduck , I was going to PM you about your question

Frank Buss 
lol

ðeshipu 
no need to make all hardware the same

ðeshipu 
BB also has the advantage of not using a Broadcom CPU

last question from @Paul Anaya : Roger, Happy Friday! Do you think you may consider adding eMMC boot to future Raspberry Pi models like ASUS is doing with their Tinkerboard S?

nightduck
And moar GPIO pins

Frank Buss 
and it has even a full KiCad schematic and board layout

ðeshipu 
luxurious

sfrias1 
+1 @ðeshipu

Frank Buss 
but this is the Raspberry Pi chat, at least they have a bigger and good community :-)

ðeshipu 
community won't power your project

Roger Thornton 
Unlikely at the current price point, we do sell Compute modules with eMMC on them if you wanted to use that. The main board can't support the cost adder

sfrias1 
OK. thanks for @Roger Thornton

ted 
I thought a teaser about this chat was "Where can you buy a Pi Zero in quantity?"

Thomas Shaddack 
backward compatibility with the OS is also handy. i fried a raspi 3 couple days ago (12V to the USB, grounding fault of a ramps/arduino module), the usb handling chip literally exploded. had only one, replaced it with a raspi 2 and it worked immediately, albeit slower.

sfrias1 
Haha

Thomas Shaddack 
can the main board have some sort of a miniature solderable line of pads for attachment of things like emmc yourself?

Patrick Van Oosterwijck 
+1 @ted

Sophi: This concludes our Raspberry Pi Hack Chat!

Roger Thornton 
The buses that would be connected to this are both used (SDIO) one to SD card and the other to Wifi. We won't be putting pads down but if you felt adventurous you coudl try tacking one on the lines!

Thanks for coming everyone, and especially thanks to @Roger Thornton

Patrick Van Oosterwijck 
No, that Pi Zero volume question must be answered

Peter 
I have to give two thumbs up to the RPi team. I was wondering what I was going to do with my first one. My children soon showed me. ;-). I was laughing as I tried to order the new 3B+. Thanks everyone!

Pabluski 
Thanks!

Evan Juras 
thanks Roger!! you did a great job handling the deluge of questions. see you next time!

feel free to stay and chat

Boian Mitov 
Thank you @Roger Thornton and @Sophi Kravitz :-)

welcome @Roger Thornton !

Jarrett says:
must be a coincidence

must be

ðeshipu says:
industrial espionage

baldengineer says:
Pattern recognition.

ðeshipu says:
complex monomers

baldengineer says:
lol

ðeshipu says:
never really finished it, the gibberish got on my nerves

Thomas Shaddack says:
yay espionage!

Sophi: welcome to the Raspberry Pi Hack Chat! My reminder email just went out, s we're going to start at exactly.... 6 minutes after the hour

Please put all qs and comments here: https://hackaday.io/event/69365-raspberry-pi-chat

Stephen says:
Hey all! Excited for the Pi chat!

XabiLopez says:
Hello everyone!

Shayna says:
Hey y'all

baldengineer says:
before we get started, slightly off topic but related. does any know how to control the Undervoltage icon directly? (I want to be able to turn it on.)

ðeshipu says:
icon?

ðeshipu says:
like a holy painting?

ðeshipu says:
or is there some context to your question that you forgot to mention? some kind of software maybe?

Evan Juras says:
im excited for the Raspberry Pi hack chat! yay! thanks for sending out the reminder email, Sophi :)

baldengineer says:3:04 PM
deshipu the pi displays several status icons, which I understand are driven directly from the GPU. one is undervoltage, monitoring the 5 volt rail

anfractuosity says:3:04 PM
status icons?

baldengineer says:3:04 PM
all references I find are people asking how to disable it or understand it.

ðeshipu says:3:04 PM
@baldengineer it only displays a text console for me

ted says:3:04 PM
so ironically there's ADC on the board, just not in the pins :)

baldengineer says:3:05 PM
okay, nevermind. i don't want to distract before we start. search "pi lightning icon" to see what I mean

Liam Kennedy says:3:05 PM
Who here has ordered (even received) their first Pi 3B+?  (I received shipping confirmation from Newark Element14 yesterday)

DrivenMadz says:3:05 PM
Packing frantically packing for shoeshoe trip to Mt Rainer :) still got it chromcasted to the TV :) Happy Friday everyone :)

srivishnu piratla 
im still looking where to buy a 3B+

Sophi: Happy Friday! :) welcome to the Raspberry Pi Hack Chat w @Roger Thornton

Roger Thornton 
Hello all, good to be here/

Liam Kennedy 
Try element14.  Good price ($35) unlike CanaKit that is up to $44 + $13 shipping

I'm sure more stragglers will show up soon, but we can get started. Roger- tell us who you are and what you work on at Raspberry Pi

Liam Kennedy 
Ummm.. Sophi... so we have to JOIN that other event thing to post questions there?

Roger Thornton 
I am one of the hardware engineers at Raspberry Pi, where I've worked for nearly three years. I am the designer for Pi Zero W and the very recently launched Pi3+

ðeshipu
love the pi zero w! great job!

Liam Kennedy 
Thanks for being here Roger... So you are based in the Cambridge (UK) offices?

baldengineer 
Nice work!

Boian Mitov
Hello everyone :-)

Roger Thornton 
Yes, I am based (and live) in Cambridge

Liam Kennedy 
Cool  (p.s.  I grew up in Haverhill.. gaaaahhh :-)

hey @Liam Kennedy !

Liam Kennedy 
Hi @Sophi Kravitz  back!!

Liam Kennedy 
Awesome work on the 3+ (I will now always refer to it as 3+ .. and save the extra typing of 3B+)

Roger Thornton 
Thank you, it was a long journey but very happy with end product

how long was the design cycle?

Liam Kennedy 
What was the "trickiest" part of the design for you?

Roger Thornton 
We started work on it early Jan 2017, there was a couple of prototypes, one was basically Pi3 with the new southbridge and the second was close to what we have now

Roger Thornton 
Hardest part was the radios, 5GHz is a massive jump in board layout work and test work

billybob 
I wonder if the "camera flash reset" think is fixed.

Liam Kennedy 
That's such a great addition.  I can't tell you how many support calls / emails I have to deal with (I Can't see my WiFi listed)

sfrias1 
Hi all. Raspberry pi event likes for me.

Roger Thornton 
The flash test is happens on every board now be fore launch, its on the growing list of things that went wrong once before that we should try and avaoid

what were specific differences in the 5GHz layout?

Liam Kennedy 
So I created a "fresh" image for my project  (ISS-Above) using Stretch-Lite in Dec 2017.  Do you off-hand know if that will work in the new 3+ - or will it need an upgrade?  (don't yet have my 3+ yet to try it)

Roger Thornton 
5Ghz is a lot more susceptible to noise, there are a lot of power supplies that all need to be very clean in order to hit the various test parameters.

Roger Thornton 
You will need to get the latest from the website or do an upgrade / update

Liam Kennedy 
Thx!

Roger Thornton 
software work literally finished an hour and a half before launch for 3+!

César Héctor 
HI there everyone

Stephen 
wow, that's cutting it close!

Roger Thornton 
It's not a launch without a mad panic moments before going live!

lol

sfrias1 
:-)

baldengineer
# truth

ðeshipu 
well, software is never finished

so... first questions (two of them!) from @Arsenijs 1) What's the reasoning behind only releasing a part of the schematics? and 2) Are there plans for opening up the DSI interface? If not, what are the obstacles?

Thomas Shaddack 
as long as it doesn't explode 72 seconds after launch...

sfrias1 
OK, thx

Roger Thornton 
1) We don't release full schematics because they are our IP and confidential, the reduced schematics are there to help people understand the connector pinouts etc.

ðeshipu
I wonder how long before someone reverse-engineers them anyways

Roger Thornton 
2) I believe you can have a go at using the DSI interface yourself, it's just really complicated to get it to work with a custom display.

ðeshipu 
and without docs

Liam Kennedy M
p.s. scroll down to enter your questions on the link that Sophi posted.. (I stared at the page for a while before I found where the questions were being posted).

sfrias1 
Thx @Liam Kennedy

Frank Buss 
I guess the DSI interface is driven by the GPU? IIRC the docs for it were published some time ago

Frank Buss 
should be just a matter of setting vsync/hsync/blank etc. registers the right way

next question i s from @ðeshipu : Are there any plans for having build-in power management in future versions? Even a simple shutdown button would be a huge help.

Roger Thornton 
"should be just a matter of setting vsync/hsync/blank etc. registers the right way" - if only it were that simple. There's several guys at Pi who have spent months staring at DSI display datasheets trying to get them working,. They are notoriously frustrating to get to work properly.

Roger Thornton 
We've worked with Max linear to build a custom PMIC for the 3+. It's a 4 output switch mode, all channels controllable over I2C. We're unlikely to include a power button, they cost money and take up a lot of space!

Frank Buss 
several guys spending months for it sounds really expensive, better hire for the same money someone who can do it in a week :-)

Frank Buss 
like me

Can I move to the next q?

Roger Thornton 
You can read more about the PMIC here

Roger Thornton says:3:28 PM http://www.maxlinear.com/maxlinears-mxl7704-power-management-ic-powers-the-raspberry-pi-3-model-b/

MAXLINEAR

MaxLinear's MxL7704 Power Management IC Powers the Raspberry Pi 3 Model B+ - MaxLinear

Raspberry Pi selects MxL7704 Five Output Universal PMIC to power their new single-board computer, the Raspberry Pi 3 Model B+ CARLSBAD, Calif. - March 14, 2018 - MaxLinear, Inc. (NYSE:MXL), a leading provider of radio frequency (RF), analog and mixed-signal integrated circuits for the connected home, wired and wireless infrastructure, and industrial and multimarket applications, today ...

Read this on MaxLinear >

OK then- next q is from @Brian MacLeod : is there any likelihood of doing a board that will accept multiple Compute Modules? That way we can have clustering on the cheap :)

Roger Thornton 
We'll also be doing a blog about the development of it

ðeshipu 
thanks!

Roger Thornton 
The compute module was designed to allow customers to get the hardware and software that is used on the regular Pi and build it into their own custom solutions that address their needs. We provide the design files to allow people to do this, your cluster of Compute modules is just a board design away!

Benchoff 
BTW, *vertical* SO-DIMM connectors are *very very rare*

Benchoff 
which is what you want for a cluster of compute modules.

next q is from @anfractuosity : Will you consider adding non-usb ethernet and usb3.x at some point? Cheers!

Frank Buss 
you could mount a few horizontally on a board, and then stack the boards

Roger Thornton 
We had a go at making one a long time ago and were able to get a suitable number on a card using the normal SODIMM Connectors.

Roger Thornton 
A quick google shows a couple of companies that make the vertical ones but as you said, the rarity is likely to make them expensive

Roger Thornton 
Non USB Ethernet and USB3 are definitely things we'd like to see. The SoC we use doesn't have the needed architecture and so we are a while away from this.

from @Thomas Shaddack : Any way to increase filesystem reliability, make the thing more resistant to powerdowns?

(gonna move fast here, there are tons of questions)

Roger Thornton 
For fail safe filesystems use network boot, no need to rely on the SD card then.

Thomas Shaddack 
that fails in case we do not have a network boot server.

Roger Thornton 
( I will type my fastest Sophi)

Frank Buss 
once I've setup an embedded system with an read-only filesystem and for user data on an extra partition, should be possible for the Raspberry Pi as well

Thomas Shaddack 
which is the case for usual field deployments as a datalogging and remote access unit.

@Roger Thornton you're doing fine :))

Thomas Shaddack 
YESSS! thanks! :)

Thomas Shaddack
will it be possible to have read-only system on sd card and writable partitions on e.g. usb disk?

Frank Buss 
and there are industrial quality SD cards, which are more reliable than the consumer cards, you can get them at Digikey, but they are expensive

Frank Buss 
sure, you can configure this all just in fstab

Thomas Shaddack 
that doesn't help with filesystem corruption. the sd card doesn't cause problems in shorter deployments.

Frank Buss 
but might need some tweaking for USB mounting etc.

Thomas Shaddack 
one of my raspis has 854 days uptime by now.

Liam Kennedy 
I have many customers still running the same 8GB microSD/SD card for the past 4 years. On a system that does a lot of writes (think playing video streaming).

Frank Buss 
yeah, sometimes you are lucky :-)

next two questions are from @nightduck : 1) What's the plans on USB-C? (Maybe to replace the charging port) 2) Any hope for an embedded graphics revision? Or do I have to stick with Nvidia Tegra?

Patrick Van Oosterwijck 
At the risk of tooting my own horn here, but it might be useful for those asking: both the power button and the filesystem corruption issues can be solved with my #LiFePO4wered/Pi and upcoming #LiFePO4wered/Pi+ projects. ;)

Paul Anaya 
Roger, Happy Friday! Do you think you may consider adding eMMC boot to future Raspberry Pi models like ASUS is doing with their Tinkerboard S?

Please put your questions here so we can go in order: https://hackaday.io/event/69365-raspberry-pi-chat

next two questions are from @nightduck : 1) What's the plans on USB-C? (Maybe to replace the charging port) 2) Any hope for an embedded graphics revision? Or do I have to stick with Nvidia Tegra?

KSwiton 
Hi i have no luck witch sata and slackware :/

Thomas Shaddack 
...thought... could the wear damage be annealed by baking out the cards at high temperature for prolonged period, to let the charge carriers trapped in the gate oxide (the flash wear mechanism) to drift away? (just a throw into the crowd, to maybe address Sometime Later.)

Roger Thornton 
1) USB C is great, but very, very expensive connector wise as it's not been as widely(and for as long

Roger Thornton 
1) USB C is great, but very, very expensive connector wise as it's not been as widely(and for as long) adopted by the industry

Liam Kennedy 
p.s. have to scroll even further down the page to post your questions on the link Sophi gave ( I though questions had closed because there is a transcript of THIS chat above the place where you place your questions). I think I need help.

Liam Kennedy 
Keeping to that $35 price point I am sure puts quite a challenge in play with ANY new designs

Roger Thornton 
2) Yes, better graphics performance is always something we would want to see but as before it takes time for Broadcom to devlop new chips for us to use. We've done an amazing amount of squeezing every last drop out of 40nm

Did we already cover SATA? If not the next question is from @Pabluski : Are there plans for a SATA connector for the Pi?

Roger Thornton 
eMMC is just to expensive to use, comparing a $35 board to $55+ board is going to give a distorted view on the market

Roger Thornton 
SATA would be great, just the same as USB3, we're limited by cost and architecture, something that were working very hard to rectify.

Frank Buss
just buy a Banana Pi, it has SATA, same price as the Raspberry Pi, and fully open source

PSA: in the comments on the event page, there are people looking to give away old Pis.

next question is from @Evan Juras :Are there any plans to create an improved Camera Module V3 any time soon? Would it be possible to add an auto-focus feature?

Roger Thornton 
Definitely, if SATA is something that you just can't live without for there are some good alternatives. The best thing about Pi is there's a big community of people and companies to help with development and at the end of it all the profits go to a great charity doing great things.

sorry @Liam Kennedy you'll have to scroll down further now to reach the comm ents

Liam Kennedy 
Yes.. I KNOW... NOW.. haha.. just missed that for a while.

next question is from @Evan Juras :Are there any plans to create an improved Camera Module V3 any time soon? Would it be possible to add an auto-focus feature?

F5OEO 
Developping raspberry as a Software Radio Defined (rpitx). Could it be possible to design a 50ohm line to pin header (PWM and GPIO4 ) ?

Roger Thornton says:3:51 PM
There's always scope for new camera modules, we've been busy on the latest Pi board, but now the dust is settling there may be time to look at some new camera ideas.

What would you want from anew camera modules?

Evan Juras 
Thanks for answering! Auto-focus would be my number one request, beyond that, just more megapixels! :)

Roger Thornton 
great, do you have any applications you are interested in using it?

Paul Anaya 
Thanks, Roger! Presently I am paying $30 for the high performance SD cards I use in my Pi's...so I would be happy to pay ~$55 for a Pi if it came with built in storage like eMMC that had higher performance than an SD card. Love my Raspberry Pi and looking forward to getting my new 3B+! Keep up the great work!

Thomas Shaddack 
can autofocus be done as "aftermarket"? maybe some electromechanics with a M12x0.5 lens holder?

Evan Juras 
I think a little flashlight to improve lighting while taking pictures/video could be useful too

Super curious about this one very practical question from @ted : Officially or not, how tolerant is the GPIO to 5v?

Evan Juras says:3:53 PM
Yes, I'm working on a Raspberry Pi-powered, blackjack playing, card counting robot! I would be stoked if you checked out my video on it :)

Evan Juras 
It uses Camera Module V2, my main complaint with it is that it's hard to get the right focus. Having good focus is very helpful for image processing

Roger Thornton 
Autofocus has been done aftermarket, there was something on the forums where someone had got a mount for other lenses, it worked but was quite hard to do!

sfrias1 
Great question for GPIO

Liam Kennedy 
+1 on that GPIO 5V question too.

Roger Thornton 
It's defintely not 5V tolerantm, the pins on the SoC are 3V3 pads and there's no protection between them and the GPIO header. Try at your own risk!

ted 
that sounds like a pretty strong no :)

sfrias1 
Thanks.

nightduck 
That sounds like a "yes, but I'm not legally responsible"

next q also from @ted : Why has ADC not been added? Why no official support of getting the voltage level (even though it's obviously there)? What about allowing a flexible voltage input (e.g., putting a regulator on board)?

sfrias1 
haha

Frank Buss 
I guess if you use a high series resistor like 1k, then it might be safe, because the substrate diodes will short it to the supply rail, but right, I would recommend something like a 74LVCT1T45, too

Evan Juras 
I think any hardware engineers will tell you: no, dont put +5V on +3.3V inputs! :)

Thomas Shaddack 
i use resistor dividers for input. 1k/2k2 (or 10k/22k) do the job well.

Frank Buss some chips allows it

sfrias1 +1 for @Frank Buss

ðeshipu then they are not 3.3V inputs, are they

Roger Thornton We have a voltage detector in the new PMIC, which gives us a flag when we are undervoltaged on the 5V. Adding extra regulators to allow for a wider input voltage would be costly.

Thomas Shaddack connect 5v there via said resistor. check voltage across the resistor. if zero, chip is 5v-tolerant. if 1.7v, it is not.

Marc Young Personal experience on the 5v GPIO thing (on purpose). Don't. One RPi lasted a small amount of time (minutes), two others did not (died in seconds).

next q from @cesar : Is there a way to use an external GPU with the Raspberry, for computational purposes?

(we've got only about 5 minutes left)

nightduck Through a USB

Frank Buss resistor divider has the problem that it slows down the signal

Patrick Van Oosterwijck My (unpopular) opinion: 5V has been long dead, get over it. :)

anfractuosity you can get nice birectional logic shifters

nightduck 

https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/questions/41622/how-to-connect-a-graphic-card-to-raspberry-pi

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