Lutetium-
Hack Chat Transcript, Part 2
08/07/2019 at 20:04 • 0 comments@Clarissa Redwine got it. thx
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@Bob Swinkels figuring out who your audience is, and how to best talk to them is key. I think the best way to do that is by connecting directly thru meetups initially, and developing your story over time. A project that I'm a fan of that I found thru hackaday was this ESP project https://hackaday.io/project/19580-esp-everywhere-kickstarter-make100-project![]()
@alireza safdari I've done a crowdfunding project as a freelancer from Germany, shipping it to many different countries, was no problem, but was only a EUR 4.5k project ( https://www.startnext.com/en/kerberos ), currently I'm working on a Kickstarter project which is a bit late![]()
I have a kind of a meta-question, not necessarily kickstarter-specific, but maybe you will know: is there any online resource that is listing and comparing the crowdsourcing platforms out there?![]()
I was initially in Malaysia and kickstarted was not available there but just recently (5 days ago) I moved to the US as a PhD student. So now I can use Kickstarter but there are still a lot of new things to figure out over here in the US. Specially legal stuff, do you have any guide, document, web page to help with the case of foreigners in the US? PS: #Alpha V1: Open-Source Remote Controller is our project
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@Matt Ruffner If you want that inside scoop ;) That Google Form generates a trello card that gives our team a snapshot of your goals. Magic! We share that link very selectively to creator swe think have projects we'd like to give extra support. Our team takes a look at the projects that come through that form once a week and decided how we want to feature or support them. We do offer campaign strategy support to a handful of creators and are always happy to share educational resources.![]()
@mosaicmerc sounds like a great strategy, and focusing on communities that have a direct interest in what you are doing. It's never too soon to start building a mailing list, and starting to regular send out updates on your progress and plans.![]()
@Clarissa Redwine , Are there statistics on the average return/contribution based on the number of people reached & informed?![]()
@Clarissa Redwine So would you still recommend using the Google Form even if you are still prototyping the project and in need of CAD support for example?![]()
@de∫hipu this is actually a great snapshot of the two leading platforms: https://www.funded.today/blog/kickstarter-vs-indiegogo-which-is-better![]()
@benw absolutely! We sometimes start working with creators years before launch :P![]()
@alireza safdari there is some information available here to get you started on requirements for creators https://help.kickstarter.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005128594-Who-can-use-Kickstarter-![]()
@benw , Hi Ben, I might be able to hook you up with CAD support.![]()
I would actually be more interested in the smaller ones, as they might be better suited for a particular project.![]()
@Clarissa Redwine, Is it necessary to have a prototype for successful crowdfunding or just some concept art and a good description? If it is necessary then what are some ways to earn money to make that prototype?![]()
@benw One more thing: The Google Form response will just go to me and Beau- so you know you're sending it to friendly folk :)![]()
@Clarissa Redwine Thanks :) thats very informative. also thanks for asking that @benw that was also helpful![]()
@Clarissa Redwine , I'll be sure to submit the google form soon!..Thanks a lot ..that is golden!![]()
@Clarissa Redwine the Hackchats are all public ( https://hackaday.io/event/19578-hack-chat-transcripts ) so this link isn't that secret now anymore![]()
So to what i'm reading, it is more advisable to find a sure community to finance the kickstarter rather than to rely on kickstarter to find this said community?![]()
Hahaha- no worries! We love the Hackaday community ;)![]()
@mosaicmerc That would be great :P Freeform modelling is abit beyond me![]()
I can redact the transcript if needed![]()
Trust!! ;)![]()
unlike this room, the transcripts are readable by anyone without an account![]()
But who will actually read the transcript? or care to scroll? Or have a project to launch? and what if the trello card it creates looks super boring?![]()
@sanfinsk Kickstarter is a great way to bring together and expand a community around supporting your project, there are a lot of projects live (1,000's) at any given time so you really need at least a core group of folks to help support and generate interest in projects and then amplify with your campaign.![]()
Well, I have a small FabLab of my own going in Trinidad with access to Engineers, techs, manufacturing etc...so if u guys need to get some prototyping help/advice....I am a World Bank Tech Micro mentor for Climate change....![]()
right, maybe not a problem :-)![]()
@Asher Gomez it kinda depends on the project. If you're working on a first prototype and you won't be shipping it to backers, you just need to be clear about that in the project. If you're promising a product, it's important to have a working prototype. Here's a bit more guidance: https://www.kickstarter.com/honest . And here's a good example of a prototype campaign where just a few handbuilt units were being offered: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1758456789/fishbit-your-aquarium-made-simple-beta-release?ref=profile_created![]()
I have been thinking about doing some Kickstarter campaigns for some of my software projects, but so far has always succeeded to fund them out of my own pocket. Do you think Kickstarter is good platform for Software based projects?![]()
@Beau @sanfinsk From what I understand, Kickstarter won't do much advertising for you (outside of some newsletter and social media), right? You can communicate with backers and built trust within your core group, but it sounds like you need to have developed an audience before launching the campaign. Or is my assessment a bit off?![]()
@Beau Thank you for the link, I guess I need to find a permanent resident or a US citizen now :D![]()
Hi all. I'm from Russia. Give me please, when my country will be available in Kickstarter country list. Regards.![]()
uhuhuh.... Kickstarter... i did two campaign... the last was great! Thank you a lot!![]()
isn't there a Kickstarter rule that you need a working prototype for a hardware project?![]()
@Beau @Shawn Hymel that being said, if you have a developed audience, what are the most successful platforms?![]()
@Boian Mitov Kickstarter is a great place to involve the community in a dev effort. Bringing software to life as a collective is a great way to build a supportive base. Here's one of my favorite examples of a software project that came to Kickstarter more for the community building: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/litterati/litterati-join-the-community-thats-cleaning-the-pl![]()
@Matt Ruffner I would say any platform is great if you have an audience, as you can always just ask your audience to fund your project.![]()
@Boian Mitov Another fun example: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/lauriefrick/frickbits-your-data-is-now-art-on-your-iphone![]()
Thank you @Clarissa Redwine :-)![]()
@Shawn Hymel it depends a lot on the scale of the project, for something small you may be able to get enough interest from telling your friends about it. For most projects, you will need a promotion strategy, and to do the work to get the message out there. Often that means building relationship with press, or influencers, and building up an audience prior to launch. We do more promotion for projects that we find really align with our values and areas of focus, at the end of the day Creators and their communities drive most of the support.![]()
And I may sound ignorant (maybeit's out of scope) but how would you even start a community? Just making a facebook page ou a website isn't probably enough, what can be done more?![]()
@Saimon great to hear, hope you come back for a third!![]()
@Shawn Hymel true.![]()
Does anyone have any experience with TIndie as a platform to sell on after a successful kickstarter launch or otherwise?![]()
@sanfinsk It's all about your audience--think about who might use your product to begin with. Hardware hackers--I would post on hackaday.io. Artsy people? Maybe Pinterest or Instagram. Find where your prospective customers hang out and go there. Start posting every day, answering questions, etc. long before introducing your product. It definitely takes time. You can also start your own web page or Facebook page, but that also takes a long time of creating posts to draw in people.![]()
@sanfinsk creating a hackady.io page, using twitter or any of the social media platforms are a good start. Ultimately building out your own website as well as your project matures becomes very useful as well.![]()
@Clarissa Redwine @Beau A good friend of mine did a very successful Kickstarter project several years ago. He raised about $100K, much more than his goal, which was amazing. However, he told me that he still has PTSD from the fulfillment. He said that customers were a nightmare -- some legit complaints, some not... and as a small entrepreneur it was extremely difficult to handle. I saw his product and can vouch that it was legit and fully functional. Thoughts?![]()
@Frank Buss yep, for campaigns that are promising the product as a reward, you absolutely need a working prototype. https://www.kickstarter.com/honest . But if it's something like this project, you don't really need a prototype... how that makes sense! https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1054991011/vulcan-i-rocket-powered-by-3d-printed-engine![]()
*hope![]()
@Shawn Hymel , I plan to define what will appeal to my audience sufficiently to get them engaged, and then to define how I am going to reach them.![]()
@Matt Ruffner Yes i have![]()
@Matt Ruffner there is a #Tindie Dog Park chat in here where you can find a lot of tindie users and employees![]()
@de∫hipu thanks, the question was kind off topic![]()
@Kelly Heaton That's a good point! And a question for @Clarissa Redwine @Beau -- how do you recommend limiting success should you have something that skyrockets and you can't hope to fulfill all the demand? Sometimes it's a good problem to have :)![]()
@Matt Ruffner not at all, I just thought you will get much better feedback there![]()
thanks, makes sense, it is all about what you promise to deliver. If you need money to do something and promise t-shirts and deliver it, then it is ok![]()
@Frank Buss Exactly!![]()
@Saimon awesome I will PM you![]()
@Shawn Hymel @Kelly Heaton it's often great when a project generates a lot of interest, however it can easily become overwhelming, one of the features that you can use is to limit the number of rewards that you offer to keep things from growing faster than you are prepared for.![]()
@mosaicmerc Definitely a good plan!![]()
@Beau Do you mean limiting even the basic tier of rewards? For example, if you know you can only realistically fulfill at most 1000 orders, don't post more than that on the campaign?![]()
@beau do you have relationships with fulfillment companies who help Kickstarter folks?![]()
btw, my brother once tried a Kickstarter as well, did invest quite some money in the artwork for the product, but was not successful: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1112236200/renaissance-playing-card-decks/but he didn't invest much in marketing, I guess this is a problem. Or is there something other that could have been done better?
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It's not even about building the actual objects. It's about shipping, insurance, customer relations... etc.![]()
@Beau : I'd like to post a couple questions to the group as a possible example to how I plan to engage the wider audience. Would that be ok for everyone to give a simple yes or no answer, kinda like a poll?![]()
@Shawn Hymel exactly, also you can have multiple stages for the same reward, so you can offer say 100 to be delivered soon, and then offer a 2nd wave to a larger audience, but factor in additional time to address feedback and any issues in the initial batch.![]()
@Beau That makes sense![]()
@Beau good idea. scaling and delivery schedule opacity is an issue![]()
@mosaicmerc Do you want me to PM you about CAD support :D![]()
@Beau that is actually a really good suggestion![]()
@benw sure, a PM is fine![]()
I have a joint venture with www.mic.co.tt for manufacturing support![]()
@mosaicmerc Nice :D![]()
OK, I know Beau has a hard stop now - catching a flight. I'm calling an official end and thanking Beau and Clarissa both for their time today. Perhaps Clarissa can stay on a bit and field last-minutes questions?One last thing - next week we'll have Sam Zeloof here talking about his homemade ICs! https://hackaday.io/event/165810-homemade-integrated-circuits-hack-chat
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Homemade ICs...impressive!![]()
Thank you! This was definitely helpful :)![]()
@Frank Buss that looks like a solid project, and didn't quite reach as many people as needed. Marketing can certainly help build a large audience, it's really important to understand the cost that adds as well and finding the right balance.![]()
*Adds next Hack Chat to calendar*![]()
Yep, awesome that you came by!![]()
thanks, yes, he did all the calculations for production, but there was no money for marketing :-)![]()
Oh my....![]()
Thanks @Dan Maloney it's been fun talking with you and everyone, and yes I'm actually off to DEFCON so hope to run in to some of you there, and if anyone has more questions or tips on cool projects you can message me directly as well![]()
@beau thanks! Have fun at DEFCON!![]()
@Beau ok and good luck and have fun !!![]()
Safe travels @Beau. Thanks!![]()
Thank you @Clarissa Redwine and @Beau for your time.![]()
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Hack Chat Transcript, Part 1
08/07/2019 at 20:03 • 0 commentsHi @Clarissa Redwine We had made a prototyping platform evive. The first version was launched in 2017 on a crowdfunding platform. Now we have upgraded it with better functionalities and now we have our own supporting software (PictoBlox, scratch based programming for kids and makers ) and App (Dabble - virtual IO shield for project making).
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And EVIVE can even be programmed in Visuino ;-)![]()
Greetings, everyone! We'll get started now. Let's welcome Beau and Clarissa from Kickstarter to the Hack Chat today!Perhaps we should start with quick introductions from Clarissa and Beau.
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@Dhrupal R Shah & @Boian Mitov EVIVE sounds great! Have you started to share the new version with your community? I'm so curious to hear what functionalities your existing community was asking for. :D![]()
Thanks Dan! Hi all! Clarissa here. I'm Kickstarter's Design & Technology Outreach Lead for the east coast. In a nutshell, I travel up and down the coast in search of innovators, creators, and makers who can leverage the powerful community and storytelling tool of Kickstarter to bring creative projects to life. Before joining Kickstarter, I cofounded a nonprofit with the core mission of fostering the North Texas startup community and worked with 10 promising robotics startups as the Program Manager of the Qualcomm Accelerator, powered by Techstars.![]()
Hi everyone, great to chat, I work with Kickstarter focusing on supporting Design & Technology projects, in a role similar to Clarissa, with a focus on projects along the West Coast, I'm an avid embedded developer hacker and big fan of MicroPython as well.![]()
@Gonçalo Nespral welcome! :)![]()
Hello!![]()
Hello :D![]()
@benw welcome!![]()
Hello Team...outside of the USA...Was part of the Orgnisation of American States, Americas Competitiveness Exchange in P.Rico as the ONLY inventor from the Eastern Caribbean. Ancel Bhagwandeen. http://riacevents.org/ACE/puertorico/the-ace-puerto-rico/
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A US Dept of Commerce funded thrust![]()
(Sorry, I was on phone and mistakenly sent a message before time. It's midnight here in India) We wanted to launch the new upgrade evive with new IoT kit for kids. Are there some restrictions in Kickstarter, which restricts re-launch of upgrades? The new version is in testing phase. The body looks same, but the internal stuff is upgraded, Book is added for kids, overall kit content is for kids (who wanna be makers 😁) .![]()
Can you tell us a little about what trends you see developing in crowdfunded projects? Are they moving in any particular direction?![]()
@Clarissa Redwine @Beau Hello and thanks so much for being here. It seems that the most successful Kickstarter projects have highly professional, charismatic videos (wherein the inventor stars)... and presumably, said charismatic inventor is talented at recruiting a fan base on social media. Can you please suggest some successful strategies for those of us inventors who are less extroverted?![]()
I think that would be very helpful for myself to know as well![]()
@Clarissa Redwine and @Beau - Any tips for us looking to Kickstart a hardware project? It seems like software has a much better chance of success due to the ease of "manufacturing" and distribution. I've seen a number of hardware projects fail (i.e. they meet Kickstarter goals but can't deliver or go under shortly after).![]()
I'd say we see a wide variety of projects across all the categories at Kickstarter, with our focus on Design & Tech there do tend to be some trends over the years, I wouldn't say I see anything in particular trending at the moment. I'm also a big fan of #Badgelife and looking forward to seeing a lot of new hardware at defcon this week.![]()
@Shawn Hymel no offense meant to Kickstarter folks - but you might be better suited with Crowd Supply because they are hardware focused.![]()
@Dhrupal R Shah absolutely, happy to share how you'd go about launching a project that is essentially an upgrade. The good news is that campaigns that have this frame do quite well on Kickstarter. The community likes to see what the platform looks like and the vision you have for the next step. Here's a good example that's STEM related: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/foldscope/foldscope-the-origami-paper-microscope![]()
@Shawn Hymel hardware projects are certainly challenging, on Kickstarter I think the hardware side is a bit easier to get attention and promote in a lot of cases vs software. With the hardware it's much more important to have a solid plan in place and ideally a good relationship with a manufacturing partner.![]()
@Kelly Heaton Good point--although Crowd Supply seems to be catering to the professional and hobbyist crowd (e.g. bare PCBs). I'm curious about using crowdfunding to manufacture a consumer electronics product (UL, FCC certs, fully enclosed, etc.). It still seems like Kickstarter is the place for that.![]()
@Shawn Hymel I really encourage creators to think about an iterative strategy and release a developer focused version if possible first, to help work out the manufacturing and distribution challenges before going out to a much larger audience![]()
@Clarissa Redwine and @Beau I've been working on a hardware project for myself for just over an year now and it's getting to the point where I really need some support to get my prototype really for kickstarter do you recommend any sites or services where I can find people who wish to help me development my project into something that is well received to the hacker community .![]()
@Beau Makes sense. Any tips for forming relationships with manufacturers? All the success stories I've heard come from people who live in (or frequent) China.![]()
@Clarissa Redwine and @Beau in your experience is Kickstarter good for software development projects?![]()
@Beau Good advice on the dev-focused version--I've seen it work and fail in the past, but when it works, it seems to go really well (as the creators can incorporate feedback).![]()
@beau How do you sell the iterations to potential funders? Often, first iterations are failures (problem in PCB, etc) because that's the nature of working out kinks in a complex hardware project. What do you give to low-level funders if this is the case?![]()
@Shawn Hymel building better relationships with manufactures is something that we are definitely focused on supporting, we have an initiative called Hardware Studio that started with Dragon Innovation and Avnet to provide better support in building those relationships with Creators![]()
@Kelly Heaton Hey hey! I'm actually pretty shy myself and think about this a lot! One good example project that put the project in the spotlight without slick production or a super extroverted founder interview is OG gem: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/joylabz/makey-makey-an-invention-kit-for-everyone .![]()
@Kelly Heaton You can also ask other folks who have followings in your community to help spread the word. Referral campaigns can be a good tool to get your community to share the campaign.![]()
@Clarissa Redwine When you mentioned what your job at kickstarter entailed, traveling up and down the east coast. Does this mean there are community events and/or scheduled venues where you appear?![]()
@Beau Ah, that helps a lot. So we can bring our Kickstarter hardware idea to the Hardware Studio for help on building that relationship? Is that open to new people now?![]()
I think that could be very useful for myself as well![]()
@Matt Ruffner Absolutely! Feel free to follow my twitter to see when I have events coming up. Is there a city you'd like Kickstarter to visit? Road trip!! ;)![]()
@Kelly Heaton it all depends on the project, we often find backers are interested in supporting the project earlier on because they believe in the idea as well and want to support it. Often projects include the thing itself like a piece of hardware, however we also have folks that choose the "No Reward" option to throw a few dollars in and offer support.![]()
@Clarissa Redwine please visit the Northern Virginia area![]()
Well Team...I have a first stage PoC product ready for launch. It is the World's first electronic steel drum stick for the Tenor drum. I need to finance the other instrument sticks . There are about 6 types of steel drums. Visualize a sound triggered LED concert illuminated drum stick for the steel drum. Target market is professional steel orchestras and Carnivals globally as well as School age children to encourage playing the instrument.
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@Kelly Heaton I'll put that on my list!![]()
So it is a combination of tech & Creative /music.![]()
@Shawn Hymel for Hardware Studio there is a website here https://hardware.studio/ and you can sign up to get notifications on upcoming features, you can also reach out to Clarissa and myself and will be happy to make some connections![]()
@Beau Awesome, thanks!![]()
@Clarissa Redwine Awesome, will do! And Lexington, KY has a lot of startups and incubators that host startup workshops. The University of Kentucky (I am a PhD student here) is also there and host at least one hackathon per year, would be great to see Kickstarter as sponsor, or involved somehow. Awesome Inc. is a company to check out that would be a great venue if you came to town.![]()
Whats the youtube link?![]()
Is there any kickstarter sponsor events in the UK?![]()
@mosaicmerc we are big fans of Music Tech projects and think there is a great overlap there, here's an example of a previous drum project https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/freedrum/freedrum-the-drumkit-that-fits-in-your-pocket/description![]()
@Clarissa Redwine @Beau do either of you have experience with electronic art projects?![]()
Has it started yet?![]()
@Matt Ruffner fill up my calendar!! ;) Lexington, KY- got it! I'll let you know when I'm heading that way!![]()
@benw Kickstarter does support some events in the UK, our colleague Heather Corcoran represents some of our International projects and is actually based out of the UK.![]()
@asher - Yep, we're in the thick of it now![]()
@Beau Great, I also have a great story....I am from Trinidad in the Caribbean . The home of the original Steel Drum invention in the 1930's. My family moved to Trinidad in the 1800's and I train young technicians how to manufacture to improve their lives in the Caribbean. The invention of the electronic stick is to be part of the National Heritage of Trinidad & Tobago as it is the first invention/innovation for the stick in this century.![]()
@Beau I would certainly love to talk to them about my project![]()
@Kelly Heaton for sure!! That's one of our favorite project types! Here are two of my favs: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/xercyn/slow-dance-a-frame-that-slows-down-time . https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1199521315/sisyphus-mini![]()
@benw Go for it!! :D![]()
@Clarissa Redwine I'm ready to launch an electronic art project in a week or so. How do I start? Direct through the Kickstarter website, or contact you first?![]()
@Clarissa Redwine right on!!![]()
@Clarissa Redwine, @Beau, I'm currently working working on a hardware idea with an amazing team and we're thinking about forming a company and starting a kickstarter not too far in the future. What are your thoughts about the right moment to launch, because the prototype will take a lot of work before it's ready.So do you suggest to wait till the prototype is finished? What gives us the greatest chance for succes?
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@Clarissa Redwine what would be the best method to contact Heather Corcoran![]()
@Clarissa Redwine, @Beau, When developing a product at what stage would crowdfunding com into play?![]()
@Kelly Heaton Fun!! You can totally give us a peek by filling out this form! We can reach out directly after that :) https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeREiaAtfUlrYGjt9jC-H82zYEAXVXA-NnwYDz-CvF_hWhSqA/viewform?ref=shapeshift-landing-page![]()
@Clarissa Redwine Putting a request to add Paris, France to the list. Although that's outside of your area. Do you have any colleague in charge of Europe?![]()
@Bob Swinkels it's always best to launch when you are ready, and clearly present your idea and have created a solid prototype. A great prototype is a big part of a project, however it's also key to start building your community and identifying an audience that is really excited about what you are doing as well.![]()
@Clarissa Redwine ,@Beau, Are there mentors who have run successful kickstarter campaigns willing to advise and assist directly, even if it is for a % of the returns?![]()
@Clarissa Redwine thank you!![]()
@benw Feel free to share your project (even if it's a tad early) via this form and Heather can take a look :) https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeREiaAtfUlrYGjt9jC-H82zYEAXVXA-NnwYDz-CvF_hWhSqA/viewform?ref=shapeshift-landing-page![]()
@Clarissa Redwine Thank you I'll have a look :D![]()
@Clarissa Redwine @Beau based on your experience and information is it better to officially register a company in the US before crowdfunding or using personal account for crowdfunding?![]()
@mosaicmerc a lot of past creators are open to sharing their experience and advice, it's definitely worth while reaching out to campaigns that inspire you, either by following their campaign on Kickstarter or connecting thru social media.![]()
@Asher Gomez there are 3 essential things you need before launch: 1) a compelling project that you know folks will want to help bring to life, 2) know the cost to produce and ship all the rewards, and 3) have a community that you've built up outside Kickstarter that can help you reach about 70% of your funding goal. Hope this helps!![]()
@alireza safdari I definitely recommend putting together an LLC before trying to sell any product or service in the US. There's always a chance someone will try to sue you, and it's better to have some kind of protection in the form of a company :-/![]()
@alireza safdari I'd say it mostly depends on the scale of the project, if it is something that you can manage individually then there is no need to make it more complicated. If you plan to make it an ongoing business, and building out a team then having an organization to support that is a great resource.![]()
Love'n this chat!! Great thoughts!![]()
@Clarissa Redwine What would be the best site to build a community around a project before hitting kickstarter![]()
@Clarissa Redwine why 70% and not 100? Lol![]()
@Clarissa Redwine Thanks!![]()
@benw - Hackaday.io, of course ;-)![]()
is the 30% just random people who go on Kickstarter and support things they find cool?![]()
@Beau, Thank you! What are your thoughts about the best ways to build this audience. Do you have any succes stories?![]()
@Dan Maloney You beat me to it :D I will say it depends on your audience, though.![]()
@Clarissa Redwine the google form link you shared, is this like preliminary exposure to kickstarter representatives, without actually starting an official page? If a project is sufficiently interesting and worthy, is there a chance that kickstarter would help with the development of the page and promotion of the project by submitting to this form?![]()
@Orlando Hoilett haha- you can always aim higher than 70%! ;) But on average creators see about 30% of funding come from Kickstarter channels. This is folks discovering the project through our curated features, like a newsletter or tweet.![]()
@Beau , I hope to leverage local schools and churches that use the Steel drum or teach the music to create a network of about 200 interested parties/players with their own networks b4 I do a crowdfunding for the second generation of instrument sticks.
I can redact the transcript if needed
