Tindie-
PCB Hack Chat with OSH Park Transcript Pt. 2
06/23/2017 at 20:30 • 0 commentsJasmine Brackett Last question from @Dirty Engineer - "Is it possible to add a "Thanks" button in the shared project section?"
good idea... we have redesign in the works
and we'll keep that in mind.
A "thanks" button is on our roadmap! We have a _lot_ of ideas on how to improve our shared projects, and we're going to start working on that in the next couple months.
@Kevin Reflow fixes all that for you. Trust the force.
Surface tension force, specifically.
This might be a good time to mention that Drew has written up some instructions on how you can link to your Hackaday.io project or Tindie product from your OSH Park shared project page - https://blog.oshpark.com/2017/06/05/how-to-share-your-project/
ecomer Re hobbyists doing SMD, I did some a while back using just a hand soldering iron. However, recently bough via eBay a Youyu 858D hot air station and I love it! Makes SMD easy. Deposited paste via syringe but just received a stencil to try with current board
Make a reflow oven for yourself. Even easier and better than hot air.
@Nick true but I don't have the flux or other stuff yet to do reflow soldering, a fine enough tip to do, or a hands free magnifying glass so I can even see what I'm doing with some of the parts.
@Jasmine Brackett thanks, yeah, please checkout the example shared project that I created. We would love to see more links in them
I don't do SMD enough to justify all the extra expense.
Good example of a shared project using markdown to link to resources https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/mly5ktob
I like to tap the toaster oven when the solder is liquid to help the surface tension magic.
I've considered a reflow oven but it can't get much easier than I've experienced with the 858D
On the whole, we're a bit dissatisfied with the current iteration of our Shared Projects, and are working on a new revision to really help users make good documentation.
(I used @Michael Welling 's BeagleWire as example :)
For Tindie sellers, you can also link to your OSH Park shared project from your product page. Look for the recently added Design Files link. You can already link to Hackaday.io using the Documentation link
Solder paste from eBay, Flux pen from Amazon, ENIG makes it easy enough with an iron
Yup, @Jasmine Brackett . Example:
* Tindie store: [**Pesky Products**](https://www.tindie.com/stores/onehorse/)
[](https://www.tindie.com/stores/onehorse/?re=offsite_badges&utm_source=sellers_onehorse&utm_medium=badges&utm_campaign=badge_medium)
My microscope was $200 if you want the extra help
I'm very, very lucky in that there's a local store that sells syringe tubes of SnPb paste.
Did " it easy enough with an iron" a few years ago - now loving the hot air tool
@PK When in doubt, add more flux. Really the key to soldering imo
I don't think @Kris Winer is here today.
@oshpark an example for what?
I wonder if hackaday could add oshpark as one of the 'service' options in project links, for easier linking
I love hot air rework. It's such a nice process. <3
Also, it's always easier to add solder than to remove too much
That's the truth @Dirty Engineer , need to get that flux smoke all over the room
@W5VO there are wicks, but ugh
Nick, I live in middle of nowhere - thus depend mail order a lot
I have a video a video of the reflow of the BeagleWire if you guys wanna see it
We've still got loads of questions on the list. @msurguy asks "When will we see 3D printed circuit boards? What's stopping from depositing all layers with some inkjet - like technology?
@msurguy Its been done
There technology that I saw at Embedded World in Germany like that -drew
@Radomir Dopieralski When I taught myself SMD soldering, that's what I did - solder, flux, wick
I feel your pain. Mail order paste is a horrible thing to have to resort to - shipping is twice what the paste costs because it has to be overnight and cold-packed.
but unlikely we could offer it given our business model
Yeah, there's totally prototypes of that. They look really cool, and I hope they get to the 3d printer state.
though our service can make 3D PCB crowns! https://tekdemo.github.io/pcb-crown/
looking forward to @Nick Sayer question about how boards are identified without numbers.
:)
@Maksim Surguy First example I could find is -> https://voltera.io/
If you do an internet search other options will be listed
The big thing is likely to be durability, resistance, and consistency. And flatness. With BGA and other small parts, it'd be very hard to solder the pins down properly without melting traces.
I have a guess - or rather, I think I have an idea how I'd do it if I were forced to. :)
@Maksim Surguy also asked "How can US compete with Chinese PCB manufacturers? Do we need more robots?"
@Maksim Surguy Always more robots! I don't see it as a huge concern though. Being US based has some advantages: Namely, medical and government often require US based sources. Avoiding international shipping is also really nice.
Is there any affiliation between OSHpark and OSHstencils?
US fabs in general have higher standards for environmental impact. Additionally, we only manufacture RoHS compatible boards.
Our scrap PCB materials are recycled through a US e-waste recycler, which are also held to higher standards.
It's also nice to deal in a country that has some basic level of respect for copyright and trade secret law.
Another major detail is when you start comparing services, ENIG boards are about the same regardless of where they're made. Chinese boards traditionally were cheaper on the back of environmental and worker abuse. Since they've been improving those aspects of production over there (so I hear), that'll drive costs up.
China DEFINITELY has scale advantages over most US fabs though, so for volume production it's hard to beat.
@Jose Navarro has a shipping question - "A couple of weeks ago on twitter James Neal mentioned a new carrier (FedEX). is there any news on when this carrier will be used for international shipping?"
though we do offer volume pricing of $1/sqin http://docs.oshpark.com/services/two-layer-medium-run/
@ecom
Soon(tm)! Next couple weeks, as we're working through the details and adding it to the site options.
@ecomer not officially, but we are friends :)
I've used medium run - definitely a good option if you hit the minimums.
I don't like using courier companies due to the amount some of them charge for customs clearance and brokerage.
Fabrication time can vary for medium run orders, but boards will ship in 15 calendar days or fewer.
And @Jose Navarro 's second question relates to as @ecomer 's - "What are the chances of being able to order stencils thru OSHPark and having them sent along with PCBs in the same Shipping package?"
Isn't OSHStencils in Utah? :)
Yes
@oshpark Why purple, is there a story behind it?
They're in Utah
@willsender it was explaioned at the beginning of the chat
> Stencils and boards in the same package
Probably nil. We've talked about partnering with them for this kind of thing, and the logistics are a bit tricky for shipping. The most likely scenario (if we ever do it) is that we'd simply funnel and order across sites, and you'll get two envelopes (one from each of us)
We so often get confused as the same company (we're not) that it only makes sense to partner with them and further blur the lines.
@Dan Sheadel But that would mean two shipping charges I believe.
That's been good for me - in a few cases I needed a medium run panelized order and OSHPark was kind enough to send the stencil gerber to OSHStencils for me. :)
Yes, but we both offer free shipping, at least in the US.
ecomer Re stencils - two packages from one order is better than us having to make two orders - in my opinion.
We've got a lot of questions on the discussion sheet. If you have a question unrelated to the current one, please add it here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZHahHN4kU0YBjMgrZMU9ntrmdDD8JOUmpHX2mR6Ok0w/edit#gid=0
*the panel gerber
I'm not in the US and timing and shipping cost do matter :(
We'll run through as many as we can for the next 20 mins
Drew and I can hng out here afterwards too :D
You stars :)
@Radomir Dopieralski asks - "I wonder what percentage of boards ordered actually gets shared? Are you getting any people sharing their projects without ordering?"
@Jose Navarro thanks for highlighting that need. Shipping board and stencil together is a logistics challenge but we'll keep it in mind as our services expand.
t would be nice to see if a shared board had actually been fab'd
yes, that is good point
@oshpark I know it won't be easy to handle, and thanks for taking that into account!!! Fingers crossed!
I share one a year that isn't tabbed.... on April 1. :)
our redesign will incorporate many features like that
*fabbed
@oshpark Anything new and exciting that you can talk about?
the concept of "worked for me"
similar to thingiverse
@Nick Sayer yes, Nick does give a suprise :)
@Radomir Dopieralski > What percentage?
No idea! Laen could look at the stats if he was in town, but he's currently trying to vacation. If past trends indicate it, he'll be failing miserably and working happily from the beach.
> Does anyone share boards without ordering?
I've seen a few, but it's uncommon. I don't have the stats though.
oshpark April Fools https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/igg1834r :)
I'll beat jasmineto the punch on the next question:
> Can you prepay international shipping costs ie handling charges
Yes! This is included if you use UPS Express Saver
Dan SheadelThere's a couple odd cases where some charges aren't wrapped up into this, but it seems to be uncommon.
I think if someone did order that one you'd just wind up mailing them a bag full of fiberglass chaff. :D
I have shared with out ordering
@oshpark I like the stickers that come with the boards. is there a new one every month? does it change from year to year?
I'm being called away from the keyboard. bbiab
more info on Shipping Information and Turnaround Times http://docs.oshpark.com/submitting-orders/shipping-information/
> New stickers
Not monthly, but as frequently as we think of cool new designs! There's a couple still pending.
@Robert Marosi we like to do a new design every couple months
OK, @Kevin you can ask yours when you're back
Shoot me ideas! we are always looking for inspiration: drew@oshpark.com
@PK asks "Non-circular drill holes - any plans on supporting these? Usually switching to circular is an easy workaround, but would still be nice. "
> Plated slot support
In the works! I'm building up some infrastructure to better handle this so we can integrate it into our system properly.
what means the hex number on stickers?
I have shared without ordering some of my designs, that I ordered at other fab houses (sorry)
i figured the hex numbers corresponded to month
then why 0x03 would be so rare?
serial number
@5Volt-Junkie Nope! That's the sticker serial number. We figured counting in hex is more fun than decimal.
it was printed as 500
small run for the Fallout game
which was popular at the time
We only made around 500 or so of 0x03, so if you didn't get one you're out of luck unless you steal some of @Benchoff's secret cache.
then @Benchoff made it famous :)
I have four.
sorry I had to leave for a while - I often get stung with high 'handling' / 'admin' fees for shipping
EVERYONE GET HIM! HE HAS STICKERS.
mouser seem to have got this sussed with fedex - a special arrangement of some kind
I want my Benchoff Bucks ! gimmigimmigimmi !
cold dead hands etc
We have a few in the Supplyframe office too.
@TegwynTwmffat please email support@oshpark.com and we can try to work it out
ok thanks
I once cut a sticker in half while openening the envelope, now I shake them before doing that
We're going to do a panel of nickles for supercon.... which is not announced yet.
@Radomir Dopieralski > Oshpark, European edition.
Not happening, at least anytime soon. The logisitics of doing it don't make a lot of sense for us. It _did_ sound like a neat idea until we looked at it further.
Rather, *I'm* going to do a panel of nickles.
:(
@Nick Sayer said "I understand the process, and that other similar fabs need to include order numbers in the silkscreen makes some sense. How do you guys keep the orders straight when breaking up the panels into orders?"
@Yann Guidon / YGDES I'm putting together a run of counterfit Bench0ff Buck$, you interested?
@zakqwy can you mine them?
@Benchoff @Andrew Sowa AWESOME!
Yeah we'll make it all blockchainy and shit no worries
@Nick Sayer Statistically, you can just shove things at random into envelopes, and they'll go to the right place. We monitor our ticket queue, and if we think we got one backwards, we go back and adjust the space-time continuum until it's correct.
Bench0ff miner ASIC coming soon!
Zak : yup :-)
lol
Secret sauce, then?
hahahaha
:) Yep.
k
@Nick Sayer also asked "There was talk some time ago about OSHPark acquiring a fab. Any updates on that rumor?"
Oh yeah, laen talked about this on Embedded.fm. Very fun episode, BTW!
It's still "possible", but not exactly "needed".
@Nick Sayer was also interested in "Obviously, specifics are confidential, but can you talk about some of the more impressive sources orders have come from? In broad terms? Any military/industrial complexes? Any Fortune 500 companies?"
It incurs a lot of cool bonuses (more control, easier to do unusual panels), but also puts us on the hook for defective equipment, and other things like that.
![]()
re: hex numbers. we're up to 0x0B :)
I'm back
Hi, Back :-)
I'm only missing 0x03 and 0x0B
>Coolest projects
Oh man, it's all hobbyists. From Robotgrrl's doodles to the fun trace squiggles from Spetku, art boards are totally where it's at. Big corporations have fun tech, but they don't talk about it, and don't add little flourishes.
will it rollover after 0xFF?
Hey @Kevin, ask your question...
yes let's put Kevin Back on
Dan Sheadel Actually, we're planning for underflow. If we do special event stickers, we're using 0xFFFF as "-1", so it's easier to keep track of ones you can't get with orders.
lol
There's other numbers we have buffered out for hijinx. Once we get everyone's sticker wallpaper nicely ordered, we're going to ruin everything.
sorry, we did do plated slots already
Dan : oh you're a 16-bits company ? when did you upgrade from 8-bits ? :-)
> Any Fortune 500 companies?
Obviously, AOL is a big one. We have over 700 customers from AOL.
:/
@oshpark LOL
Alright, just a few more - @Tom asks "The option to include teensy boards in orders is a nice touch, do you plan to take this further? (I realise Paul is local)"
I was using a slide switch with plated that used rectangular tabs on the shell which is why I needed rectangular slots. The topic of slots has pretty much been covered. The questions about that I can ask is there a time frame as to when slots will be fully supported so we don't have to do anything fancy to use them? Will the gerber viewer be updated to show the slots?
probably quite a few from gmail too.
@oshpark but also from google, right? :D
oshpark nice one @Daren Schwenke (Hi from Drew!)
Are the AOL customers the ones most often using the DOS CAD programs?
most likely :D
tango pcb ftw
> The option to include teensy boards in orders is a nice touch, do you plan to take this further (I realise Paul is local)
Nah, we like keeping it small. We occasionally track our process to see if there's optimizations, and little stuff per package like this adds a LOT of time. When we do our special christmas gifts, it increases our general hour workload by about 30% or so to add more items.
Thanks, makes sense.
> Is there interest for community (electronics/pcb) contests?
Sort of! We used to sponsor prizes for /r/diyelectronics when they'd do contests.
Nice.
We're always up for sponsoring contests with PCBs.
From what I saw over there, it's hard to pin down a "contest" that feels fulfilling, but judgable. I'm sure the HaD staff is nodding tot hat.
We'd prefer not actually run the contest ourselves.
Not a chance. We did it once, it was a nightmare.
@Boian Mitov "How do you test the boards for shorts or eroded lose connections?"
the square inch contest was really cool.
That one was, yeah. Good criteria! Essential for contests
yeah that was a great contest
@Dirty Engineer yeah indeed! thanks @alpha_ninja !
A lot of good things came out of that.
Agreed
including the #PICTIL :-)
We should do the 1" pcb contest again
4 layer maybe :)
yah
> Testing
Automated Optical Inspection. Basically, the boards are held up to a black light, and then an image is checked against the source files. If there's a discrepency that's beyond specs, then the board is marked. And by marked, I mean they generally destroy the board.
ooh! never done a 4 layer board. good idea.
that is a some way of marking
This is actually why they flouresce under a black light: The AOI uses it to increase the contrast for the testing procedure.
me neither, cost issues...
@Jasmine Brackett When you asked me to go ahead with my question I was reading the scroll back. By the time I caught up and asked the question I think you already went on to the next question. Bad timing being called away at the wrong time. :P
Yeah, it's irksome that it's destructive, but it's _way_ more efficient than the other process, which involves lots of humans keeping track of things. Errors are really rare though, so it's not like we're throwing out a lot of pcbs due to this.
Is AOI a recent addition, or has it always been done?
@Chris Gervang asks "Is the OSH Park API still up and running? I was playing around with generating breakout boards from the footprints I'm generating with Pinpoint, and placing an order for them on OSH Park."
@Nick Sayer we've always done it
what was your question @kevin?
(hope we answered it)
Is there a time frame as to when slots will be fully supported so we don't have to do anything fancy to use them? Will the gerber viewer be updated to show the slots?
> Do you have a favorite board?
I don't! I love a lot of boards for a lot of different reasons. Anything with art on it gets a solid <3 though.
The main questions about slots has already been covered so these are supplemental questions on the topic.
@Kevin yes, @Dan Sheadel has improvements in the works for our handling of slots. We don't have ETA but it is a priority
The developer pages 404, does that mean the api is gone? https://oshpark.com/developer/sessions
> Oshpark API
Sort of! We actually JUST updated this to hopefully be slightly more usable in general.
http://docs.oshpark.com/tips+tricks/api/
And with this, we just actually pushed out some cool toys to take advantage of it.
https://github.com/OSHPark/OSHPark-Eagle-Tools
oh!!
It's now possible to start a PCB upload from within eagle, from an actual menu button <3
@oshpark ok, ty. My board was too small for me to be able to use a round hole instead of a slot so I was rather stuck with using a slot.
Or, you can just use cURL
Ooh! Nice! I had been using a really REALLY old DRU that I had augmented.
Is it possible to place an order entirely from API, or do I have to go to the site at some point?
Kevin: feel free to email support@oshaprk.com if you are ever wondering about a specific design. Different CAD tools have different issues. http://docs.oshpark.com/design-tools/
You gotta shout about that from the rooftops, guys. :)
The full REST api, sadly, is undocumented. The developer that was working on writing the docs wound up leaving for some health reasons, and so they never got finished. As non-rails developers, we're not capable of writing them ourselves. :/
A couple folks did wind up using it, and so if it's implemented, it'll continue working, but we're not able to help in a meaningful way to actually using the dang thing.
Well you are probably talking to a room full of people eager to help.
@Nick Sayer I literally hit publish on that yesterday. :) You guys get it first.
+1
Right, well done everyone! I'm going to do the official wrapup now (but you all can obviously continue hang out here)
Thanks to Dan & Drew. They said they'd be in here for a little while, and anyway as @oshpark, we're pleased that they are very active on Hackaday.io
Thanks everybody !
I'll be around for a bit yet! I assume there's still questions I haven't gotten to. ^_^
Eagle mentioned a lot - I use geda pcb and now mostly the nascent pcb-rnd which, unfortunately is missing from oshpark's Design Tool Help page just posted above
Thank you!
Thanks everyone who stopped in!
oshpark THANKS!
Thanks!!
Shulie: Transcript here: https://hackaday.io/event/25499-pcb-hack-chat-with-osh-park/log/62074-pcb-hack-chat-with-osh-park-transcript
Thanks folks!
@ecomer very interesting
OSH Park is a fantastic resource for the Hackaday and Tindie community, and it's great to have people so passionate about what they do.
@ecomer GEDA seems to mostly "just work", or it has no users. I've only ever gotten a handful of emails about it, so we never had the need to write docs.
Just wanted to let people know that if you're a Tindie seller or interested in becoming one, we have a project https://hackaday.io/project/19393-tindie-dog-park
We also list all the great hackaday.io projects on sale at Tindie on this list - https://hackaday.io/list/11210-awesome-projects-on-tindie
geda had little new work on it so a new crew spun off pcb-rnd - it is uber active with lots of new features. VERY active IRC. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiUu8yc6tTUAhXBrD4KHVaiD7YQFggoMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Frepo.hu%2Fprojects%2Fpcb-rnd&usg=AFQjCNG6utbgYtqVUBsc-S1dPdtsnTsvBw
Thank you to everyone at OSHPark. I never made my own PCBs in the past. I always just used breadboards and point to point wiring. With KiCAD making it easy to do a PCB layout and having discovered OSHPark I used OSHPark to make the first PCBs I had designed myself for a project.
Also, OSH Park have given us special discount codes for Tindie sellers to use on their next run. Info in the #Tindie Dog Park
Any time I see something starting with # it makes me think of Twitter
I don't do Twitter.
Thanks for the insightful answers! (and the awesome news regarding flex PCB's and plated slots :D)
http://repo.hu/projects/pcb-rnd/ is correct link
@Kevin that is great to here.
@oshpark I posted the reflow of the beaglewire
Thanks @oshpark and @Jasmine Brackett !
@Kevin did you upload the .kicad_pcb file directly?
@Michael Welling exciting! is there link?
sorry about the music choice, youtube has a bunch of funky music :)
Thanks oshpark for a vital service to the OSH community
-
PCB Hack Chat with OSH Park Transcript Pt.1
06/23/2017 at 19:55 • 0 commentsJasmine Brackett Hello Everyone. Welcome to this week's Hack Chat! !!!
Woo
Shulie: Welcome!! We have tons of questions in our sheet already! https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZHahHN4kU0YBjMgrZMU9ntrmdDD8JOUmpHX2mR6Ok0w/edit#gid=0
Jasmine from @Tindie here. It's great to be hosting this Hackchat with the help of @Shulie Tornel and the Hackaday team.
KiCad or otherwise. I usually do direct kicad uploads nowdays but I'd send Gerbers if needed for plated slots
Shulie: Hopefully we can get to every question. :)
Hi everyone
This Hack Chat is part of a collaboration Hackaday & Tindie to bring content and events that encourage engineers and inventors to prototype and bring their ideas to market.
We're super pleased to have @Dan Sheadel and @Drew Fustini from @oshpark here today.
\o/
Hio!
Hi everyone! -Drew Fustini
Hi Drew !
@Jarrett OSHPark told me they couldn't do plated slots when I asked them. I did see that work around but it it felt a bit like a pain to me.
Hey Drew!
As @Shulie mentioned, there is a question sheet here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZHahHN4kU0YBjMgrZMU9ntrmdDD8JOUmpHX2mR6Ok0w/edit?usp=sharing
Once we've got through those and we have time there will be an open session.
Hi @Shayna and @Yann Guidon / YGDES! -drew
made it just in time
Radomir Dopieralski that should be about tomorrow noon
I'm sure a lot of you, especially those in the US are familiar with OSH Park, but now I'm going to ask them to give a little intro about themselves.....
About us as people, or us as a company?
Shulie: Both? :)
Yep
wait, you're people?!!
a company that allows people to retain their identities?
We are all individuals! Just like everyone else!
RE: OSH Park, we're a community printed circuit board (PCB) service! We bring you high quality, lead free boards (ENIG finish), manufactured in the USA, and shipped for free to anywhere in the world.
Dare I say, Soylent green is people. :)
yum yum
I'm Drew Fustini and have been with OSH Park for about a year and half now. I love Hackaday.io!
what about soylent purple?
we have a can of that actually!
It's incredibly strong industrial grape scent. We don't open it.
Laen (the founder and owner) saw a cool purple circuit board at Dorkbot PDX years ago
(the portland electronics meetup)
I heard a rumour that almost every purple PCB goes through your hands @Dan?
and he decided it would be a nice color to use for their batch PCB service
No, no, That'd be Kelly!
Ah sorry, I was misinformed. How big is the team?
So, maybe a bit about where we're at. As drew's typing out, we started as a side project that grew out of Dorkbot a few years back.
About 4 years ago, was when Laen decided this was either "hire some folks or quit", and Kelly and I were the results of that. :)
So, up until about a year or so ago, she was depanelling about 95% of all our orders, and got to admire all of the pretty board art.
:-)
Very nice. And this is all in Portland?
So, if you ever think your cool PCB art feels like a waste, nope! We love it! We still snap photos of the amazing ones for our personal collections.
nice, i'll bet you've seen some great ones!
Dirty Engineer For all the pretty boards.. there has got to be some that you just cringe when you see.. terrible layout and non functional
We need to start putting "Hello, Kelly" in the PCB art work. :)
Yeah! All our shipping and handling is done in our office in Lake Oswego. We currently have 4 office workers: Kelly, Gabe, and Kim who do shipping and depanelling, and Laen, who's busy running things.
(I was going to say I'd love to see your personal collections, but that sounds a little wrong)
Heh, yeah. For obvious legal reasons, we can't really publish most of them.
My favorite was a picture some time ago of a board that was two boards connected with tabs, but the second board had a note like "HEY LAEN! DON'T BREAK THIS!"
:)
hahaha
here's some photos of the office from our BringAHack party last year https://blog.oshpark.com/2016/09/24/pre-summit-bringahack-at-osh-park/ and https://blog.oshpark.com/2016/09/30/recap-of-pdx-maker-week-open-house/
Alright, so I think @loxodes has a question..
Damn, I was in Portland for PyCon.US just now, I should have visited
Nick Sayer : I'd love to see that one :-D
mega-cool
I can't see if @loxodes is here, but the question is "Do you have any future plans to support low loss substrates such as RT4350B?"
(I know I asked drew at the hackaday superconference, but I'm going to keep bugging y'all :D)
Currently, our best substrate is the FR408 used in our 4 layer service. No immediate plans to offer RF4350B. FR408 has a Dk of 3.66 , which is the same as RT4350B’s Dk. More info on our FR408 http://docs.oshpark.com/services/four-layer/
Currently, not really. We don't have enough demand for the 4 layer boards to add other services without seriously dropping our turn time. This is really the big issue with new board types: If they're not popular, they take FOREVER to get to a point where we can afford to get it fabbed.
Ok, just for the fun of it. This is one really old board that I designed back in the days when I was not doing mainly software :-D
http://www.retrotronics.info/modules/news/article.php?storyid=14&lang=english
Okay, thanks. I'd be happy with even a month or so turn time, there aren't any affordable options out there for fancy substrates.
Sorry, @loxodes.
Since we are showing boards designs and stuff... ;-)
@zakqwy, you got the next question?
The other reason is that we feel pretty strongly about supporting any new service. We really don't want to go "Here's a fancy cool thing!" and have people design a board around it, only to drop support. That'd be a huge bummer.
@loxodes this is the datasheet for our FR408 http://docs.oshpark.com/resources/FR408-High-Performance-Laminate-and-Prepreg-Data-Sheet.pdf
(we can have another round of board show and tell if we have time at the end)
oh, yes. Uh, it's like, a 4-parter.
Better get started then :)
interested in official support for plated slots, flex, castellation, andV-scoring. Thoughts, @oshpark ?
Yes to some!
:-)
it's almost like fitting in in 140 characters
love the new FB page with the pretty boards
Here's a fun offer for anyone here: We're currently working to test out flex, so if anyone has a flex-based PCB design, send it to support@oshpark.com.
ah cool!!
We'll get it fabbed, free of charge, and send you a couple to test with. :D
@Lutetium the OSH Park page? https://www.facebook.com/oshpark
@Dan Sheadel Woah that's really cool!
oooh, flex. I have some costume stuff I'd like to do.
leds on flex!
We really just need to fill a small panel. We can't promise anything about turn time or quality at this time, since this _is_ our test run.
Flex like the stuff they make the AdaFruit R-Pi Spy camera with? Kapton?
Yeah! It's kapton, 2 layer, with clear mask (no purple yet). Same specs as our standard 2 layer is the current target.
@Dan Sheadel Great offer. Wish I was working on something where I could use flex
We're hoping to send a panel to fab in the next month, but really want to see flex-only designs on it.
oof purple flex will be awesome
/me has a nasty idea to order some pi camera cables for pi zero
Is the turnaround time on the flex same as 2 layer?
but I guess all the people who want to do wearables should be exctatic
exstatic
flexible blinky wearables. Absolutely.
No idea yet on turn times. We haven't gotten a panel fabbed yet. Final turn time will be determined by order volume.
Also not sure about pricing. :) But, if you're quick, it might be free, so who cares about that detail.
@Radomir Dopieralski ecstatic
@Kevin who invented that language!
some Frenchman or what?
@zakqwy got any followup q's or shall we more onto @Radomir's?
nope, that is all!
To the other bits, no plans for v-scoring. Our process isn't set up for it, it adds a bunch of costs, and is on the whole less precise.
What are the chances for custom purple pin headers or switches or jumper wires or other components to go nicely with the PCBs? Purple breadboards? Maybe project boxes? I mean as addon-stuff similar to how you can get purple teensies now.
need to start a flex pcb design :)
We do see the need, so it might be some off-order option later, but our backend doesn't have handling for it yet, so everything would be all manual and awkward. For now, just no plans.
Lastly, the slot part of that 3 parter! IN THE WORKS.
about v-score, right? --^
^ correct.
+1 for flex! whats the best way to call out stiffener in eagle?
Slots have taken way more effort than one might reasonably expect, since we have to write a whole lot of tools that work with a whole lot of really mangled gerber files. It's a lot of custom code and huge amounts of test cases.
yay slots!
sorry for jumping the gun
I'm surprised. I've had good luck with adding an outline of the slot in dimension over a big via.
hahaha i'll bet you guys see some seriously mangled gerbers. my bad.
We still see some users who use programs that run in _DOS_
@Dan Sheadel One issue with slots is the OSHPark gerber viewer doesn't show them. It only shows circles.
That was actually your guys' idea!
wow
@Dan Sheadel slots worked perfectly on my last order. Thanks!
https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/4xmQTksw
Kevin @Dan Sheadel Any current day programs that are generating mangled gerbers that we should know about?
@Kevin Yeah, currently only the first part of a drill hit is registered, and the "slot" part gets chomped. The hacky workaround is the one we discuss on our slots page, which is drawing things on outlines.
@Shlomo Zippel great to hear! we look forward to seeing photos from burning man
our official reference for slots and cutouts http://docs.oshpark.com/submitting-orders/cutouts-and-slots/
@Dan Sheadel I still tend to pick mouse based on the way I can lift and move it in the air. Thanks to the DOS OrCAD scrolling ;-)
thanks drew! i'll definitely get some pictures
@oshpark Saw it. It seemed a bit of a pain and I didn't want to risk winding up with bad boards.
(FYI - there is a burner group here #Hacker Burners )
Nah, no callouts on CAD tools here. We have tools that auto-fix most issues already. We've sent bug reports to various companies, and they're generally not willing to fix them. Not that it matters, since no one updates from those tools anyway.
> Purple headers, wires, etc.
No plans until you mentioned it, but this sounds amazing! We sometimes get asked about headers for the purple teensies, and this would go great! If we ever wind up doing a kit or subscription thing, we'll probably wind up having to do this.
re: @Radomir Dopieralski question: we'd love to find a supplier that could do purple parts like headers, etc. I was trying to find a supplier last year but ended up in a dead end. Any tips on suppliers, please email drew@oshpark.com
Can we roll through some of the other Google Sheets questions?
So @Radomir Dopieralski , it looks like there are some purple accessories here: https://store.oshpark.com/
^ Most notably, really comfy sweatshirts with vaguely pog-shaped logos. ;)
Any chances for supporting direct upload of Fritzing files?
If anyone knows of supplier that can do purple headers, please let me know! -drew fustini
(that's my second question from the sheets)
Thanks, I will be looking forward to those, unfortunately I don't know any suppliers.
Fritzing uploads are _totally_ possible. However, there's a really nasty "gotchya" that halted this: If you add a ground plane, then draw traces, then export gerbers, your board will be shorted.
That's a shame.
Well, Fritzing has a lot of bugs, but there is preview for that.
Shulie: Next up, we have questions from @Jarrett "How are free upgrades to the super swift service picked out? Any tips to maximise our odds?"
Friends don't like friends design PCB's with Fritzing.
Because of that particular trap, we decided to _not_ add fritzing upload. We really don't want to encourage users to use it, only to find that it'll result in non-working boards. :/
@Dirty Engineer that's just blaming the tools for your own ignorance
I love Fritzing's workflow, which is really awesome, but the pcb tool itself is pretty lackluster. I hope one day it has good integration with something like Kicad for that side.
Dan, I'm catching up, and I see a mention of flex PCB...... OMG !!!
I see, thanks.
When we have extra space on the daily super swift panel, we will upgrade international orders first
and then move through a list of folks from the community that have asked us
it depends on how full the panel is for a given day
"Yeah, I'm moving to Europe to maximise my odds of Super Swift upgrades"
@Radomir Dopieralski No, fritzing pcb is just garbage.
lol
> Swift picks
Mostly random! We do try to pick through a few special cases. One of them is international, since those orders already take a long time, and we want to help out those users.
@Dirty Engineer that's close-minded thinking and doesn't push the conversation forward
hehe... we do that because international faces the longest shipping times
Thanks, it's really appreciated (Canada here).
Are self-declared micronations considered international orders?
@Radomir Dopieralski you're welcome to use Visual Basic all you like, but you're rapidly going to hit a brick wall when you need to write a driver, or do a project that is more than a couple files
I'd like to give a big shout-out to the new super-swift pricing.
I think that's an okay analogy
I can confirm that, free shipping to Mexico takes something between 1 to 3 months.
Jasmine Brackett We see that with Tindie orders too
@Nick Sayer yes an exciting thing for 2017 was the nice Super Swift pricing https://blog.oshpark.com/2017/02/01/super-swift-for-less-in-2017/
@oshpark , any plans to make more aggresive design rules anytime soon?
Yeah, international shipping is a mess. Other than the UK, I don't think I've seen any country with a generally positive shipping review.
where it is now $10/sqin versus $89 surcharge per order
@Jarrett I'm just paraphrasing Benchoff's article.
Ok, @Jarrett next question...
Shulie: "How many people will typically see the boards as they go through manufacturing?" @Jarrett question
@Dirty Engineer That's what I mean by ignorance
do ultra-precise stuff. Copper balancing is a big deal, and tricky to get right.
@willsender we list our design rules but rely on the customer to run DRC in their CAD tool. http://docs.oshpark.com/design-tools/
interesting question, @Jarrett . what do you rekon, @Dan Sheadel ?
>How many people see the boards
It's hard to say on the side of our manufacturing facilities. Probably about a dozen, based on some fab visits we've seen. From people on the Oshpark payroll, roughly 1.
I don't disagree with you, @Dirty Engineer, but you have to either defend your claim, or ignore what other people are doing :)
I actually back off my flood-plane spacing from the 6 mil minimum. Those times when I have had shorts, that's been where it's happened.
@Jarrett also asked - "Any stories of cool/unusual boards that you remember?"
Yeah, 95+% of shorts we've ever seen are trace -> Ground plane. If you consider the linear distance operating at minimum spec, ground plane isolation is an easy place to improve your manufacturing yields.
i think the most recent example is https://hackaday.io/page/3353-full-panel-pcb-painting-fabricated :)
but there has been tons of amazing boards over the years... let me find some links -drew
We see a lot! Our favorites are ones that make cool outlines, as much as anything.
@oshpark wow that's fabulous.
That is crazy.
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The flower is amazing
/me looks for a better image of it
My "go to" standard art board is this dragonfly board. Does a good job of showing off not just the artistry of the colors, but how to make a functional pcb.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8179/8025166755_a28041948f_o.jpg
Do you guys ever find a cool board and make _four_ of them, one as a souvinier?
Shulie: Wow, those are amazing...
Oh here! They have it in action: http://www.lumenelectronicjewelry.com/
Impressive...!
Reminds me of lacquer work on antiques
Wow. That dragonfly board is a really neat.
Pretty awesome PCB art here
Lumen are on Tindie
@Benchoff No, but we have negotiated "you get 2 for free and we keep one"
some photos https://plus.google.com/photos/+Oshpark/albums/6333017586389944753
awesome pcb art
yes, we love Lumen up in Madison, WI (@Mike Szczys land!)
@Jarrett 's last question is 'How do you pronounce "castellation"?' :)
silent t?
Which if you google it there is an audio clip in the first result - https://www.google.com/search?q=castellation&oq=castellation&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.803j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
@oshpark I've met Robin and Marty many times. Really cool boards. Robin had a Lumenlabs booth at MakerFaire this year
I generally don't. I always type it XD
But I'm not sure it's correct.
@Benchoff that is kind of what we did with Blake for the full panel. Please get in touch with me if anyone has cool artwork ideas and wants to collaborate: drew@oshpark.com
I think the one time I tried anything approaching art it was the "I can reflow" badge.
@Benchoff There are a few Benchoff nickels floating around
re: boards, one of my favorites: https://plus.google.com/photos/100779964808096572793/album/6333017586389944753/6333018254399231794
And that wasn't very arty
That gradient is awesome
@Nick Sayer we love your I CAN REFLOW badge!
Cool PCB art tip! Find something with exposed PCB substrate and shove it under a black light.
@oshpark wow, a few drill bits were killed making that one.
@Dirty Engineer asks - "Any plans for other board thickness? 1.2mm is my preference"
(0.4 is cool too)
@oshpark I am so happy that it's inspired folks to give it a try!
well, there are going to be those flex pcbs now, they are rather thin
glow in the dark! https://twitter.com/docprofsky/status/734276550531514369
they have .8mm for half height double copper
The subset of parts you can get as TH parts compared to the universe of SMD only.... Well, hobbyists really shouldn't be locked out of digikey's whole catalog, frankly.
oshpark
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spooky!
@Dirty Engineer Not immediately, but we'll add it to our list of requested sizes. It goes back to the general scale difficulties in adding a service. We have to ensure that we have enough volume to get the boards out in a reasonable timeline.
@Nick Sayer I think hobbyists shouldn't be that afraid to try SMD.
2 Layer 2oz copper 0.8mm thick Service http://docs.oshpark.com/services/two-layer-hhdc/
@Arsenijs Absolutely not!
A volume of about 1000 square inches per week is about the minimum we need to justify a service over the long term.
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@Arsenijs only if we can get SMD sockets so we can change the burned chips ;-)5Volt-Junkie says:12:51 PM
@Arsenijs agree
two layer vs four layer
glowing @Benchoff
0603 is as small as I want to deal with and even that is a pain without getting a different iron and/or tip for my existing iron.
Jasmine Brackett @Dirty Engineer also asks 'Will the bug in the board preview that shows horizontal lines in solder pour areas ever be addressed? (Eagle)?'
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SMD is not that difficult... I'm an old recovering acholic and mostly can do it.
Tom 0.8mm is cool, I used it to fit a pcb vertically inside a 2.0mm pitch pin header.
I have GPS modules now that I am *REALLY CAREFUL* about storing properly because they're very, very sensitive and very, very expensive.
(sorry 1.27mm pitch not 2.0mm)
PCB Hack Chat with OSH Park
Discuss purple PCBs and more with Dan Sheadel & Drew Fustini
