Mosaicmerc,

No offense meant by this, but you are running the same version of the firmware (Lam_Mod_V2_2.HEX) and the same Eagle layout (ApachePCB_modV2.brd) from the files section, right? I got my 12F675 a couple days ago, but out of the laminator, it does the same thing the 683 did. It puts out 4, 15mS chirps with one second between each, then waits about four seconds and repeats (no beeps). I've watched PIC pin 5 on a scope and seen no "buzzer type" activity. I've also now gone over the board and re-checked all connections, and just finished replacing all 3904's and 1N4148's just for the heck of it. I also breadboarded the PIC with nothing but Vdd/Vss, but pin 5 does nothing there (I guess it needs signals on some other pins to run?).

Out of curiosity, I tried it last night in the laminator, but the rollers just seemed to run continuously. I don't really know what to expect there, so I may read up on it and try it again, but there still weren't any beeps.

Sorry for all the hassle. : (

Thanks!

I am here to support all users. Something isn't right and we'll get it sorted.

Use version 2.1 Hex as 2.2 is supposed to be the same EXCEPT it beeps each time the rollers reverse. I am still running 2.1, so use that and let's get on the same page. There is a readme that mentions the changes.

The mode you're mentioning sounds like the 'cooldown' where the unit chirps every few seconds and then switches to longer beeps after 16 mins. That is triggered by a 'long press' so validate that your push button isn't stuck or shorted. The rollers will run continuously in cooldown, but your heater won't work until you power cycle the laminator.

Hi again Mosaicmerc,

That sounds about right. I did lots and lots of button pressing when I was trying to get it going, so there's a good chance it was in cooldown. I actually put 2.1 in there at one point, but ironically, it was to try to hear it beep. I'll go ahead and put that back and try to get it back in the laminator and figure out how to use it.

Take Care

Mosaicmerc,

Seems it is doing OK. Starts in normal mode and goes into your FW/Rev mode with a button press. The two second hold also starts the cooldown chirp sequence.

A couple questions if you've got a minute: Am I correct to assume that it's still up to us to knock the temp down with the panel buttons after initiating cooldown? I put mine at zero degrees while it was chirping. Mine did not seem to change after the sixteen minutes though. It kept doing that 4 chirp/pause thing I mentioned. That metal strip over the rollers also stayed hot enough that I couldn't touch it even after about twenty minutes at zero degrees. Not sure how long the machine normally stays hot, but I had run it at 370 right before that. I mainly just worried that something hadn't properly turned off the heater, but if it takes that long, I can live with it. I ended up power cycling the machine for a second then letting it sit for a few minutes on zero. At what point is it safe to stop the rollers? Speaking of which, "power off" is the only time they ever sit still, right?

I was also wondering if the function of the original panel's reverse switch is supposed to change with the mod. Their docs state that you press it to get into reverse, then hit it again to go back to normal forward rotation. Mine only remains in reverse while the button is held ( in normal or FW/Rev mod mode), but I didn't pay attention to it before I put the mod board in there.

I did try one small board. The first transfer at 350 didn't take at all. Next, I bumped it up to 370 and ran about five passes to be safe (under mod mode). I also knocked the trimmer down to slowest after a couple passes. I started with it around mid-point. I'm guessing it doesn't need five passes, but I'll work that out later. You state that it's no longer recommended to mess with the pressure. You think there's any chance that these machines aren't consistent from one to the next, and that some of them need adjustment? I did see a comment or two to that effect on Amazon.

Sorry for all the text and much thanks for all the work!

PS- Please keep me posted if you can figure out what that v2.2 no-beeper thing was all about here.

PS2- This thing really knows how to stink doesn't it  ;-)

Once you trigger the 'cool down' mode the display shows the actual temperature of the rollers and disconnects (over rides) the internal heater. No temp adj is required to cool down which makes it easier to set a temp that works with your toner transfer and just leave it.  16 mins is just a time that gets the temp under 300°F or so. It can take 2 hours to cool to room temp. I have adjusted my settings so each roller cycle moves the PCB 1/8 to 1/4" , thus a 4" PCB will take perhaps 20 fwd/rev cycles to pass thru.

The rev. button on the LED display only works when held down. Its operation is unaffected by the mod. I generally wait until the PCB has completely passed the first set of rollers and then reverse the rollers to collect it.

The mod doesn't stop the rollers. Only powering down does that. If the rollers stop/stick and the heater is running they get badly burnt, make white smoke and crumble.

If you want to tighten the rollers,  run up the screws perhaps two complete turns. The extreme tightening is unnecessary and caused my laminator to stick and burned my rollers. I had to swap out the hot and cold rollers and wrap the burnt ones in kapton tape to keep them from crumbling.

Thanks for the info!

300 degrees is higher than I would have guessed, but that's a lot easier than waiting two hours or something. I didn't like the idea of having to keep the motor running so long.

I did have an issue a few days ago where there was a really odd sounding "rapid fire" thing going on with a relay while I was heating the unit up (in normal mode). It was clicking sporadically the whole time. You haven't run across that have you? If it's the on/off sound for the heater, I can't figure why it would be doing it at a time when the unit was nowhere near it's target temp yet. I'll recheck my connections if I go in it for the rollers.

I'll be needing to do that aluminum soon, so I'll probably be looking to loosen things rather than tighten. Any guidelines on that adjustment for eighth inch you mentioned, or will I just be able to tell?

That thing did great on this last board BTW. I've never gotten such clean solid transfers of large ground pour areas with an iron. It also did a wonderful job of transferring labels onto the top with normal Staples photo paper. I do still do multiple passes to be safe though.

-Thanks Again

I'd say loosen 3 or 4 turns all around for the 1/8" material, also remove sharp edges from the aluminum or it might cut the silicone rollers. Send the material down the center as that's where the temp sensor is. You'll probably have to ramp the temp up to handle the thermal mass and conductivity of the aluminium.

I do have plans for a more advanced mod that tracks the A.C. motor current in the event of a stall to handle overload alerts  and do a safe shutdown. Your needs make me wonder about adding a pressure sensor pair to the hot roller screws for accurate torque setting feedback to handle different material thicknesses predictably.

Any mods you can come up with are appreciated. I was thinking today how nice it would be if it worked like my thickness planer, and you could just crank the rollers up or down to your desired thickness on each run. I'd love to be able to do quarter inch on it, but I have a feeling that would be pushing it. The main thing that messed up my 1/4" plexiglas trials was getting uniform heat across the material without melting it. The laminator seems like it would be perfect for that.

Take Care

Mosaicmerc-

I had that rapid relay thing again last night pretty bad and think I may have found the culprit. If it happens, it starts while I'm setting the temp, right when it passes the unit's current room temperature, and keeps clicking for most of the heat up time. I went in it today to look at the roller adjustment setup and check things, and I noticed that the sensor you mentioned is just sort of "hanging" in that bracket with the screws almost all the way out. I probably should have looked at all this stuff when I installed the mod.

http://s5.photobucket.com/user/Jidis/media/Sensor.jpg.html

I'm guessing that thing is supposed to be screwed tightly against the bracket and the distance is set by the part fastened to the floor. Could you give me an idea on how close it's supposed to be to that roller?

<EDIT> I went ahead and pulled that thing out and noticed it's spring loaded, so I guess they're supposed to be loose. It does still seem to have the ability to rock from side to side. I may see if a wider spring would help. Does it normally contact the roller as mine does?

Also, the aluminum took a couple tries and I still had some touch-up. I backed the rollers out four turns as you suggested, but still had a couple occasions where the workpiece stopped and I had to reverse it out. Is it easy to tell if you've done any damage? I only got a very brief smoke smell once, and that could have been from the tape. I also noticed that with the rollers loosened up, I sometimes see that the top rear roller isn't moving and needs to be tapped back down to make contact (not sure if that matters).

-Thanks!

Sorry to respond so late...

The mod doesn't change the heat up cycle. It will cut the heat if the sensor gives an out of range value or when it reverses the rollers. i'd try to see if this clicking prob occurs with the mod unjacked.

Your thermal sensor seems physically normal.

Hi again,

Am I correct in assuming this circuit should beep under power while *not* connected to the laminator? The Apache showed up today, but I'm waiting on a 12F675. I got impatient and ported the .asm over to a 12F683 by tweaking a couple lines and setting it for 4MHz. It produces four short "chirps", waits about a second, then repeats (no beep). I'll check over the code and the PCB to see if I can find anything screwy unless that's what the board does out of circuit.

-Thanks!

As I recall, it gives a 1 sec beep upon power up. Nothing else until you press the button. If you port to the 12F683 successfully please share the code as others may have use for it.

FYI: Verify the configuration bits, adc channels and GPIO pinout assignments and the overall clock speed to ensure a PIC chip conversion.

Thanks Mosaicmerc,

I'm no master of the PIC, but if I get it going, I'll remember to post it. From what I remember, the 683 has all the same pin functions, plus some extra ones. I put the correct oscillator info in the config register for 4MHz, but I'll double check all that as well as my soldering and PCB.

Take Care

Hi,

Sorry if it's been mentioned somewhere, but is there any sort of "minimum" board size for this thing?  The majority of my etches are under a few inches square and occasionally much smaller.

I've got an Apache on the way and am looking forward to using it, but I'm one of the few lucky ones who have been getting pretty nice results with an iron. I have however gotten used to having one or two minor spots which don't adhere and I expect to spend at least a few minutes with a fine tip paint marker. I'm hoping the laminator will eliminate that and get me closer to 100% predictable transfers.

Much thanks to whomever was involved in reverse engineering this thing and giving us this great mod circuit.

Take Care

I'd say perhaps 1" long (perpendicular to rollers) is the minimum workable size so the board transports thru the rollers properly. Usually for such small boards I'd stay at around 2" long and  trim excess after. Width (parallel to rollers) doesn't really matter much. I just did a 1" x 1.5" board like that.

Thanks mosaicmerc! Sounds small enough. 

Do you or anyone else here still have any issues with any sections of board not transferring when using this system, or is it fairly consistent?  This would not include the pitting type thing that happens with the pours and large black areas. I'm OK with having to paint over those.

Well, PCB prep (220 grit sandpaper & isopropyl wipe) is still important but probs with smearing toner traces (too much ironing pressure) or  toner traces that 'float' off during etching is a thing of the past. Especially so for flex PCBS. For 2 oz copper boards; don't go under 16mil features. 1 oz copper - 10mil. 1/2 oz - 8 mil.

Foiling the toner layout before etching fixes all the pitting probs. Any craft foil for laser printers works fine. For a small PCB I use a silver sharpie to combat pitting.

BTW, printing faceplate lettering and graphics on paper and then foiling it allows you to peel off the foil and get a perfect set of transparent lettering and  graphics in the used mylar foil sheet. You can apply this to  the actual faceplate for  a professional look!

Thanks again! I'm really looking forward to using this thing as well as trying out some foil. I bought a roll of that white stuff long ago for labeling, but couldn't get it to work as I'm using the Staples paper which leaves a film embedded in the toner. Once I get this laminator running, I'll figure out what to switch to to make that work.

Wish it could go over a sixteenth in thickness. I've got sheet aluminum here that I've used for panels that's about an eighth. I've also been able to do toner transfer to Plexiglass (maybe a quarter inch thick), but both materials required a ton of trial and error to get the proper amount of heat, plus the front panels are typically so much bigger than your average PCB, which makes it hard as crap to get uniform pressure and heat all over the board.

Take Care

The foiling fails unless you use 'clean paper' for the transfer. Even printed magazine paper for toner transfer has probs with foiling. 

If you loosen the rollers in the Apache you can do 1/8"th material, there is enough adjustment for it. I have some PCBs that are that thick.

Yeah, that's what I was figuring on the toner with paper stuck to it. I had an older type here ("Jetprint" maybe) which comes off clean, but the transfers usually weren't as solid with the clothes iron method. I'm sure I can find a good combo with the laminator.

I'll look into that roller adjustment. I've done some stuff here with etched black text on raw aluminum that's nice looking. It's tricky though, as the metal not only acts as a heatsink, but you're doing an almost all black panel with your desired text or graphics exposed, so it's not the best thing for toner. I think I painted in the large areas.

http://s5.photobucket.com/user/Jidis/media/metal.jpg.html

Thanks Again

Hi, I am using a cost-down laminator like yours but with a pot to set temp and an analog meter to show temp setting. It also has thinner rollers. 

I tried first with a Canon LBP3000 printer with aftermarket toner. With another (cooler)  laminator I got no toner to PCB bonding at all. With this (cost-down) laminator I get only partial bonding at 190-200 degrees Celsius (370 - 390 degrees Fahrenheit). 

Then I bought a second hand color laser, Fujixerox Docuprint CM205fw. It looks like the toner is original. I have been using this and it works well but I have been setting the laminator to 190-200 degrees Celsius mentioned above.

I just thought I would mention this as the temperature range you have specified may be too low for some toners.

Thanks for contributing!

Actually, without the mod running, operating the laminator at max temp (380°F)  is required. This is because the copper/toner interface rapidly cools once it has  passed the rollers and you only get partial toner melt and partial bonding per pass. Thus you need multiple passes (and hot finger tips) to get the job done.

The mod described here doesn't permit the copper/toner to cool before complete transfer. It works more like your laser printer...one overall fusing pass.It does multiple mini passes under the rollers (before the toner cools) thus requiring lower temperatures since less heat energy is lost. 

There is a beneficial side effect from less heating/cooling as well....less PCB thermal expansion cycling and consequently less distortion of the contact points between the toner and the copper thus making for very fine detail capabilities and better results.

Please provide a link to the kit at clubjameco. I searched for AL13P there and didn't find it.

I've been using a stock AL13P for years. I've found that HP Premium Glossy Presentation Paper CG988A works fantastic for toner transfer. Best paper I've ever found for that use. There is an A4 size equivalent that would be readily available for those outside the US, but I don't recall its number. Haven't used parchment, yet.

Hi, the link to the kit is in yellow under the image gallery sidebar on this page.

Did some comparative tests with non OEM toner AND I posted the pic in the gallery....you can see that magazine paper transfer  is about 100% BETTER than baking parchment. I ran both tests back to back using my HP1102W and Apache AL13P (single pass mod active) @ 350 °F. had no probs 'washing' the paper off the PCB, didn't even soak it. Came off in under a minute.

Has anyone measured the roller bolts torque using a torque wrench?

I know the instructions say to tighten fully, then unscrew 4 complete turns - but, to tighten bolts "fully" is a subjective thing, unless it means until the springs are fully compressed (which would appear to be incredibly tight to me).

I bolted my PCB in place last night. The tactile switch (I used one with a nice cap) and pot line up great, though I was only able to put nuts on 3 of the 4 bolts ... one is too close to the buzzer.

Here's a tip, try it without torquing the rollers at all.

With this mod u don't need to! If u stall your motor you can burn up your rollers from the heaters.

Too late ... I followed the instructions when installing your mod. Which is why I was hoping someone had measured the "factory" torque of the bolts. I wish I had now.

I believe the 4 notches on the roller mounting bracket has something to do with how they setup the machines at the factory. Perhaps they slot ametal guide between the notches on both sides, then screw the bolts in until the rectangular spring plates/nuts touch the guides.

The above method would rely on all brackets being identical - which they're not. I noticed at least one of mine is bent slightly less than 90 degrees (the part that folds under the spring and pushes the rollers down).

I'm going to try this alignment method and measure the torque from all 4 bolts, then get an average setting. After torquing all bolts to the average, then I'll run some test transfers and adjust them in 1/2 turn increments.

Well , only the hot rollers need to be firm, the second 'cold' pair are just transport rollers and can have very low torque.

Actually the instructions only call for installing two 6-32 machine screws. I suppose you might be able to mount the buzzer on the bottom of the PCB like the tactile switch so you can use all 4 mounting holes.

I was worried about the board rocking with just 2 bolts - being as the pushbutton switch is mounted off-axis and not directly between two opposing holes.

As it is, the drill I used was a perfect size for the bolts, so the board was tapped as I carefully screwed them in.

I just like to over-engineer things, so 4 bolts with lock nuts (because of the gear vibration) would've made me happier.

I built one, but cannot get it to work.

I'm new to electronics as well, so don't know where to start looking...

The board is receiving around 16V. The heating element never switches on. The rollers never reverse. Nothing beeps.

On the 7805 output I'm seeing -0.5V (with scope grounded to the heatsink tab of the 7805).

I programmed the PIC12F675 using a Minipro and switched off the Code-Protect flags so that I could perform a verify. So I'm pretty sure the chip is programmed okay.

The cables are wired 1-thru-6 to 1-thru-6, except for the plug connecting to the display - which is wired 1-thru-6 (mod board) to 6-thru-1 (display).

I've continuity checked the cables. All okay.

I've switched out the 7805 for a new one... no difference.

I even bought a new PIC chip, because I thought perhaps I'd screwed something up ... still no luck :o(

Help me Obi-Wan, you're my only hope!

Well if your 7805 isn't outputting 5V you got something connected wrong and nothing will work.

No power to the PIC means no response.

Step1: Remove the PIC.

Step 2. check your 6 pin cable connections via the recently added schematic picture in my 'files' link. That needs to be done right. 

Step 2a: Did you notice the schematic and layout contain bridge jumpers? If you don't install those  you have no circuit. They are not listed on the parts list as this is an intermediate project with some 'build' knowledge expected.

Step3: Apply 12v bench power to the 7805 and verify it's delivering 5V output.

Step 4 Insert the PIC and apply bench power to the 7805, circuit MUST beep on power up.

Step 5: (once beep is confirmed) Install and verify operation.

I found the problem (thanks to following your tips for verifying that the LM7805 was working okay) ... I had wired my cables assuming that PCB connections MP1 and DP1 (White/Green on your color coding) matched with Pin#1 on the Molex header of the Mainboard/Power+Relay board (there's a "1" embossed on the connectors, which is also confirmed by the datasheet).

The build instructions read to me that you had to wire the Display connector backwards, but if you go by the Molex spec it's actually the connector that plugs into the Power/Relay board that is wired backwards (at least to work with the laminator mod board).

Alternatively, it could be built using two identical 1-to-1 wired cables (both with Molex KK .100 housings on each end) and two 6pin headers (directional type with the friction lock tab) on the PCB - with only the MP header being rotated 180 degrees. Though it means wiring another two connector housings, it will actually make things simpler and less prone to confusion.

PS: those IDC connectors are awful without the proper tool (the type for wiring network keystone jacks is too big). I prefer to hand-crimp (using needle-nose plier), solder the pins and insert them into regular housings.

Glad u got it sorted!

Added a schematic  detailing the 6 pin cable assy. It's in the dropbox link to all files.

Has anyone made this mod to the latest The APCHE AL13P from Amazon?   made the board and program the pic but it doesn't seem to work.   Seem to sorta work the VERY first time on power up.   I can see the roller going back and forth a few times after pressing the button but then it just goes forward in one direction.   Any number of subsequent presses does nothing, rollers keeps going forward.  I can hear the relay clicking but rollers has no affect.   Holding the button down for 1 second for cool down mode works as described.   I'm at a lost as to what is happening.

Hi Devin:
This was a DIY and not the ClubJameco kit as you programmed the PIC?
So
you hear the relay switching every couple of seconds but the rollers
don't reverse? You could be hearing the heater relay being cycled, it is
synced to the motor rev. relay. 
You can run the mod with the top cover off comfortably.
 Have
a look at the schematic and verify the motor relay transistor is
switching power to the relay.  A multimeter can tell you this., measure
the voltage across the motor transitors collector & emitter  (Pins
Mp3 & 5 on the 6 pin relay board connector) with the rev. mod
activated. That voltage should drop to <0.5V when the relay is

Are the kickback diodes installed properly? Oriented right?

I did the diy thing because the kit was out of stock.   It's back now so I ordered one.  Will report back once I get the kit.   

I did troubleshoot as you suggested.   Everything appears to check out.  I even replaced the motor transistor.   All the components are oriented the correct way.   It did work once as I saw the roller go back and forth like it is suppose to but for a very short period.   Anyhow I will try the kit and see where that leads me.

Thanks

Ok, great. Once  I had probs something like u saw. It occurred because the pushbutton's cylindrical 'button' was 'jamming'  against the metal housing of the Apache and vibration was was causing it to 'switch' erratically.  Something to check out.

Well, since u can program the PIC, I can add a [test firmware] 'beep' task every time the  rollers reverse so you can determine if the problem is with the transistor drive or the motor relay. If no beeps occur, then the mod isn't  reversing the rollers and either the tactile button isn't working properly or the PIC has some kind of problem.

As an aside i used some standard Toner Foil from Ebay and it works very well.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/160937797413?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&var=460141909885&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Sure, I'll try it out while I wait for the kit.

Ok , check the dropbox link for version 2.2 of the hex. It will beep when the motor reverse relay is switched ( by the mod). it should be useful to eval. if the mod is operating correctly. If the motor does NOT reverse, the prob.  lies with A) the NPN RELAY drive transistor,T5 B) The 6 pin connector & cable C) the relay itself.

You can eliminate the relay if the Apache Rev. button works.That leaves A or B.

No good on my end.   Beep is there and I can see the roller again attempt to do something but not consistent behavior.   I think my PIC programmer is crap.  It's very old.   Anyway thanks for trying.   Kit is on its way so I will know soon enough what is causing it.   I'll update once I get it.

The latest pics of the wiring help a lot to understanding the wiring but that was not my problem.   It was the pot that was the culprit.   The kit came and it did the exact same thing.   Fresh from the factory the pot is all the way to the left or right.   Since I mounted my pot up it set the timing so that reverse was so short that it look like the rollers was not reversing when in fact it was.   It was just so short that you couldn't see it via watching the rollers.   Once I turned the pot, it worked and I could see it.   Playing with the pot I could see the reverse shorten until I couldn't see the roller reversing anymore but I could hear the relay click and roller briefly stall.   This is EXACTLY what I saw all along.    Stupid me.   Anyway I mounted the pot that way to test because I'm going to drill my case and mount an external pot and switch to make it work and LOOK better.  Don't care about the warranty.     Thanks for the help and sorry for the goose chase.

Hmm, usually the pots come centered. Anyway the instructions did mention the pot being adjusted to suit maximum slowdown, which amounts to 1/8" or so of forward travel for the PCB per cycle. Any more slowdown makes it hard to get the PCB started thru the rollers with the mod active. Enjoy more reliable PCB fab'ing.

I have settled on 'Bakewell' brand siliconized baking parchment (cheap as $1.00 per 5yd x 15" wide roll) , secured to regular paper with blue painter's tape and wiped clean (important) with isopropyl damped Bounty before laser printing the traces! It releases from the PCB in 15 seconds under water! Also, silver sharpies are the ticket to  manually doing traces or 'fills'. I 'bake' the fresh silver ink hard by placing the PCB on the hot laminator grey grille for a few minutes.

I have been trying the parchment paper thing which work and release great without any soaking at all while waiting for your kit to arrive.   I gave up on it because of pitting.    Now that the mod is working I will give the alcohol wipe a try and maybe another brand.   Bakewell is UK I guess as I don't see or recognize it here in the states.   If not your mod should make all the other paper work like a charm from now on. 

Pitting does happen on 'fill' areas. Has to do with the Toner density of the printer or  if the toner cartridge is running a bit low. I use the Silver Sharpie to augment the fill areas or wide traces! If it is a complex board you can foil it after the toner transfer to solve all the myriad tiny pits. Then use the Sharpie on the few 'holes'  left over, if any. Using 'magazine' clay coated paper fills in the pits but it's a bit of a headache to soak & rub off a detailed surface mount board with small pitch parts. It sometimes causes bridges in the etching, much more of a problem than pits.

I have heard of people printing to parchment paper and then placing the printed toner (on the parchment paper) onto the PCB and then into a sealed container with a very small amount of acetone. The acetone chemically melts the toner and bonds it to the PCB by air displacement. I gave up with parchment paper because the toner image was too fragile. 

I am using Pulsar Toner Transfer Paper. It is dextrin coated. Dextrin is completely water soluble so the transfer paper just floats off in water. It's a bit expensive at about $20 for ten sheets (about A4 / Letter size). Pulsar also make Toner Reactive Foil (Green TRF) which is supposed to fill in pitting after the toner is transferred to the PCB. I have used the TRF every time so can't say if pits are a problem without it. It is much cheaper, about $12 for many meters at A4 or Letter width.

I am printing traces down to 10 mill and I haven't had any trouble with these products. 

I did however have lots and lots of problems with toner. The first printer (toner) I tried wouldn't even transfer onto the PCB at nearing 200 degrees Celsius (390 Fahrenheit). 

I went an bought a color laser and that works well. I chose a color laser as I want to print colored decals for front equipment panels using the same method. 

I have heard that the toner in Brother printers wont transfer at all. So I am guessing the toner has a lot do with how well it works. Some after market toner refills may be completely different to the original manufacturers toner as well. 

Just reading back on your post and mine, I am now not so sure if it is acetone or

isopropyl alcohol that melts toner. 

Acetone dissolves the toner.

I will give that a go when I am next removing toner after etching. I have been using steel wire buds but I will try Acetine.

The APCHE AL13P is back @$70..

http://www.amazon.com/Apache-AL13P-Professional-Laminator-Documents/dp/B0012UEQ5C/ref=pd_bia_nav_t_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=07JX6MQD89BY0SN0XWF873,

Updated the PCB GERBER files for those who prefer that format.

I wanted to get the AL13P, but they went out of stock, so I ordered the AL18P. When I get the time to open it up, I'll look to see if the controller is the same, and report back.

That would help the community, thanks!

Any updates for the AL18P compatibility with the 13P modification?